For the second time in two weeks, an evangelical minister has been arrested outside The Clarkston Pageant–Martin Harris: The Man Who Knew. The first arrest of Joel Kramer, 39, director of Living Hope Ministries, a nondenominational ministry based in Brigham City, was for investigation of disorderly conduct for videotaping the pageant. Based on the Living Hope Ministries’ website their sole purpose is to tear down the LDS faith through their lies, deceptions and half truths. Producing misleading videos is one of their chief methods of deception.
The First Arrest
The Deseret News reported Kramer’s arrest:
Joel Kramer, 39, was arrested and booked for investigation of disorderly conduct after he told a Cache County sheriff’s deputy he was not violating any laws by videotaping the pageant. The pageant depicts the life of Martin Harris, an early disciple of Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
“These are free pageants, so there’s no copyright violation, and I’m within my rights to be on public land,” Kramer said. “I feel like it was the LDS Church influence. That’s the reason I was arrested.”
Kramer, who claims the entire incident was recorded on video and audio tape, said he was told by a sheriff’s deputy the LDS Church had requested Kramer turn off his cameras.
At the beginning of each pageant, an announcer asks the audience to refrain from taking photographs or video, Kramer said. “It sounds like law, but it’s a request,” Kramer said. “It would be like me announcing over a loudspeaker that I would like them not to show the pageant.”
Friday night, Kramer said he and three other men from Living Hope Ministries turned off their cameras and tried to reason with the sheriff’s deputy, especially when told the cemetery amphitheater had been leased by the city to the LDS Church. They also changed locations in the cemetery, moving farther away from the amphitheater, but Kramer was still arrested.
The Herald Journal, a Logan based paper reported:
Pastor cries foul, others smell publicity stunt at Martin Harris show
A 39-year-old Brigham City man who calls himself a “missionary to Mormons” was arrested Friday night at the annual Martin Harris pageant on a charge of disorderly conduct.
Joel Kramer, pastor of Living Hope Ministries, was booked into the Cache County Jail around 9:30 p.m. for refusing to stop filming the popular event held in the Clarkston Cemetery after being told to do so by authorities. He posted $280 bail and was released. . .
Although tickets to the showing are free, spectator rules include no photography, video or audio recordings. At the beginning of each pageant, an announcer asks the audience to refrain from taking photographs or video, but the pair continued to shoot video until approached by deputies.
Kramer’s Brigham City-based ministry aims to convert Latter-day Saints to his brand of Christianity and produces Web-based videos aimed at “people of the Mormon faith.”
Its Web site says members oppose Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teachings and the promotion of them.
Kramer called the arrest unjust and religiously motivated, while a Cache County Sheriff’s Office spokesman characterized Kramer’s presence at the pageant a publicity stunt.
Although tickets to the showing are free, spectator rules include no photography, video or audio recordings. At the beginning of each pageant, an announcer asks the audience to refrain from taking photographs or video, but the pair continued to shoot video until approached by deputies.
“They moved to another location and started filming again,” Bilodeau said. “They were warned that they were welcome to stay but if they didn’t stop filming, they’d be arrested for disorderly conduct.” . . .
After being placed in handcuffs, Bilodeau said Kramer asked one of the three people traveling with him to call a lawyer and alert the press to his arrest.
“They want the controversy and they want the press,” said Bilodeau.
Kramer said his church uses clips of the various pageants as part of the videos it produces encouraging LDS Church members to leave the faith. Kramer said he has never himself been a member of the LDS Church.
The Second Arrest
Today, the Daily Herald reported on the second arrest:
SALT LAKE CITY — For the second week in a row, an evangelical Christian minister has been arrested outside a Mormon-themed pageant in northern Utah.
Daniel “Chip” Thompson, the 47-year-old director of Solid Rock Christian Fellowship, a campus ministry at Snow College in Ephraim, was arrested for investigation of criminal trespassing by the Cache County sheriff’s office Friday night at the Clarkston Pageant. The pageant depicts the life of Martin Harris, an early follower of Joseph Smith, founder of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Thompson was with eight others handing out religious tracts that compare Mormonism with the beliefs of other forms of Christianity. He said the Clarkston City cemetery’s amphitheater, where the pageant is performed, is public property, so he should not have been arrested.
I am pleased to see the arrests of these ministers. I am hopeful the prosecutors will have sufficient basis both factually and legally to prosecute and win. There are far too many of these fringe evangelicals who are nothing more than anti-Mormon trouble makers who will do and say anything to paint the Church in bad light. I am tired of reading about disrespectful protesters outside General Conference, and Temple dedications and now pageants crossing the line of appropriate religious expression or even protest. The reported court date for each of these, our so called Christian brothers, is for September 13 at the Justice Court in Clarkston. I hope to be able to post some follow up to that hearing date.
August 23, 2006 at 7:02 am
hmmm, this looks like a new strategy, goading the church into pressing charges of tresspassing against them. I wonder where this is going to lead to……
It is tough for me to see them as my “Christian brothers.” Who is it that funds the publication of anti-Mormon books? It isn’t Muslims, that I know for sure, and I’m pretty sure it isn’t Jews. Athiests don’t particularly care which form of Christianity people choose.
August 23, 2006 at 7:55 am
There’s a difference between videotaping someone else’s dramatic production without permission (plainly wrongful) and merely handing out pamphlets (traditionally protected if done on public property, although a leased facility is different than a public sidewalk).
But it’s clear these folks are just religious troublemakers, and the sympathy they get from some Christians simply reflects the fact that they think anyone who stirs up trouble for Mormons is doing something good. What hypocrites!
August 23, 2006 at 9:18 am
I look forward to seeing the outcome of their court appearance. It boggles my mind that they can consider themselves Christians when they are explicitly breaking one of the greatest commandments: “love thy neighbor”. Go ahead and disagree with us, but protesting and tearing down the faith of another are hardly Christian acts.
August 23, 2006 at 9:59 am
My sister did this sort of thing after she left the church. The church has prospered. She has not.
I think she did it for attention, enjoyed the attention, and now it’s over.
I figure the time will come when she’s born again, re-joins the church and get lots of attention from that. Some people.
August 23, 2006 at 10:05 am
Dan, I think the strategy is to make it look like the Church is pressing charges. I’m not so sure the Church has specifically requested arrests–but maybe so. I agree with you that the new strategy may be to push the envelope as far as they can and then claim the Church is violating their First Amendment rights by having them arrested. Quite frankly, I’m quite pleased that law enforcement is arresting some of these clowns. I hope they can make it stick.
Dave, I agree with the differenct you note–but emphasize as you do there is likley a big difference in handing out pamphlets on public property, i.e., street corner vs. privately leased property (even public). I also agree with you these folks are nothing more than trouble makers wrapping themselves in the First Amendment so they can spread their lies and deception about the Church. As I’ve said . . .I really hope some of these criminal charges stick.
Connor, Amen preach it brother!
Annegb, Yeah, I’ve never caught on why there are those who can leave the Church–but not leave it alone. I’ve had this discussion with several anti-Mormon types who are actually former Mormons–rather than fringe evangelical wing nuts. But the result is the same–they just can’t let those of us who choose to believe and want to nourish that belief worship who, what,when, and where we want.
September 15, 2006 at 1:50 pm
I guess you guys are right I mean what kind of a faith do we have if we do not allow it to be challenged. If we truly are the true church then our beliefs will stand up and nothing that these guys have said will make a difference. I personally always take this non lds literature, there’s no harm in studying right? The Bible clearly tells us to study to prove what is good. What are we afraid of?
September 16, 2006 at 5:01 pm
Dear Guy Murray,
How come you deleated my comment???? Do you have to be LDS to comment on your page? or just because I have a different thought than you it makes you not want others to read it? I am just curious…
September 16, 2006 at 10:44 pm
Kjoy, Your comment, may have been in with a batch of troll comments on this thread that I deleted. One does not have to be LDS to comment; however, as I mentioned there were several which were clearly from evangelical trolls which I felt innappropriate. Feel free to leave your comment again, or the essence of what you posted and I will take another look at it. I just want to avoid having trolls fill up comment space with useless drivel.
September 19, 2006 at 5:20 am
Dear Guy,
My comments also got nixed??? I didnt think my comments were evangelical just logical and American. I thought our country was about freedom and respect … even to those who disagree with us. I think my comments were kind and rational – why the degrading comments and hurtful reply?
PT
September 19, 2006 at 10:34 am
Thanks for the comment guy, my last comment I was simply saying that I don’t think they were in the wrong by talking about Jesus to people. I think that if anything people need to discuss this topic more often. If we think about it there is nothing more important to be discussing with people than the topic of our eternal existance after death. every religion evidently believe different things and obviously not all of us our right. We all are in the same boat, because we are all sinners. (Romans 3:23) So the only thing rock solid we have is the word of God, the Bible. The Bible is something that even the LDS religion has as part of their scriptures. So I think that since Christians believe the bible and the LDS use them as part of their scriptures we should be able to discuss what the bible says on how we get to heaven. So if we all sincerely want to love as Christ loves we will study and share together on what the bible says we need to do to live for eternity with God. So I am open for discussion if anyone wants to talk to me.
GOD BLESS
September 19, 2006 at 10:45 am
Kjoy,
I have to agree with you on this. Since we both believe in the Bible and Jesus, why would we be upset to talk to anyone about these things. Keep talking!!
September 19, 2006 at 11:51 am
Kjoy,
I think the problem is not that we’re not amenable to talking about eternal salvation, but that there is a time and a place for all of this. More importantly, this minister didn’t go to the pageant to talk eternal salvation. He went there to record the goings on to use them for malicious purposes. His own website says that he is against the church and is attempting to convert Mormons. It is one thing to go into a conversation about eternal salvation, and totally another to do what he is doing.
September 19, 2006 at 12:23 pm
redhatmandan,
Why would we be upset if someone is taping something that is “truth”? I would think we would want that shared as many places as possible. I think the one man was just handing out literature from what I read. Interesting??? I do believe in the freedom of speech don’t you? If we didn’t then we are in big trouble when our teens head out to talk with people at their homes. Am I missing something?
September 19, 2006 at 12:45 pm
tt,
Having not been there, I can’t speak to what is right or wrong. We don’t know what kind of contractural agreement the church and public officials agreed on for the use of the space. Public land can be leased to private individuals or organizations with certain parameters that are more constricting than regular laws reagarding public land. None of us here know what those are. I doubt the church would want to pick a legal fight with a ministry group obviously pushing the church’s buttons. This ministry would love to see the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints having never seen the light of day. Let’s not kid around. You don’t create a ministry with the express purpose of converting one targeted group of religious people without wishing, at your heart, that that religion never appeared in the first place.
This ministry is not going around trying to share what they believe about the afterlife. I took at look at their website. Their express intent is to tear down the LDS church. Their main focus is to destroy, not build. Frankly, I’m glad they were arrested. They are malcontents, not real preachers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That said, I don’t know the whole picture, as most of us do not. I just know that upon looking at their website, I am deeply sorrowed to see individuals whose sole desire in life, apparently, is to tear down my religion. How pathetic.
September 19, 2006 at 3:58 pm
redhatman,
what website did you look at??? I would like to see what your talking about…
September 19, 2006 at 4:18 pm
Kjoy,
Living Hope Ministries, which Guy had linked to at the top of this post.
September 19, 2006 at 7:42 pm
Kjoy, PT, tt, and the rest:
As Dan has already pointed out, these “ministers” who show up at these pageants and other LDS events have one thing in mind. Their ultimate goal is to destroy the faith of other believing Christians. They do not want the LDS Church to prosper. They do everything they can in any way they can to discredit the LDS Church. Let’s not pretend that we don’t know what’s really going on here.
This is not an issue of free speech or freedom of religion. These “ministers” were asked politely before any confrontation to cease and desist their activities. They refused. Law enforcement intervened and they were arrested for their activities. I’ve done a brief internet search and I don’t know what the disposition of their cases is.
I hope each “minister” was afforded due process. If convicted I hope they will be forced to pay a fine or suffer whatever consequence there is attached to the law broken.
While their onsite demeanor at the pageants may have been more reserved than some evangelicals who frequent General Conference and Temple dedications, their goals and purposes are the same. These are the same types of people who lie about the LDS Church; who yell and scream and LDS worshipers who deign to exercise their First Amendment rights to worship, who, what, and where they please when they go to General Conference; who deface and make light of sacred religious vestments of our faith, in public, on street corners of Salt Lake City; who are verbally abusive at the top of their lungs at sacred religious events. I’m sorry, but I have no sympathy or brotherly love for these individuals.
Again, let’s not pretend these issues are something different from what they really are.
Both Dan and I have posted the website to one of these ministries. It’s entire existence (for the most part) is dedicated to the tearing down of of the faith of fellow Christians. Why? Because they (the so called) evangelical brothers of ours don’t like our religious beliefs.
September 20, 2006 at 7:35 am
Dear Guy Murray,
you say that the website it geared to tear down the religious beliefs of Mormonism, but what are their sources? Have you checked into what they are saying at all to have a defense for it? The bible says in 2 Timothy 4:2 “Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.” So if what they are saying on the website is “Lying about the LDS church” then the LDS should be ready to defend their beliefs. If what sources they are using is false and what they are saying about the church is not true then prove to them on their site where you can make a comment that their sources are not correct. We as people need to be prepared and study to know what the truth is by backing up what we are saying with the word of God. So use it to talk to them about.
As far as saying that you know what the “Goals and purposes” of “All” the people witnessing on the pageants I don’t think you could possibly know that because I’m sure you haven’t met them all. There are some street preachers that the way they present things I do not necessarily think it is the right way to do things but you also have to realize that everyone on the streets witnessing may not even believe the same things, or even be christians. The only way you could possibly know that is by talking to them. I can garantee you that some of them definately have a different agenda than others. Since this is true don’t talk to the ones that are yelling, or offensive to you but talk to the ones that are just there wanting to talk to somebody,(handing out tracks,or standing their with a bible waiting for someone to talk to them) theres no reason why you can’t witness to them while they are at your pageants, I would think that would be a great opportunity for the LDS church to share their gospel with others.
If their agenda is to tear down the LDS church then by all means use the bible to show them why you believe what you believe. I can assure you that they are willing to talk to you and it may even be an opportunity for you to defend your belief and if they are wrong on something show them from the scripture. And it may help other LDS people listening to your conversation know how to defend with scriptures the LDS church. The agenda of most people that I know are out there simple out of love to show what they believe to be the truth of the gospel.
What do you think of what I am saying? does it make sense?
September 20, 2006 at 8:37 pm
Kjoy,
Let me be brief. I have no intention of engaging you further in a religious debate. The entire point of my post was to point out an evangelical minister was arrested for certain conduct–conduct of which I disaprove.
My experience is that these religious debates end up going nowhere. Your suggestion that we turn this post and other conversations with evangelicals into a religious debate really misses my point. You’re entitled to your opinions. My point is that the manner of expressing those opinions are at times innapropriate, as was the example of this particular minister. Thanks for stopping by and commenting.
September 22, 2006 at 8:06 am
Hey Guy,
It has been a couple of days since I have responded because I want to be fair and speak after having done do diligence. In the past couple of days I have e-mailed Rev. Kramer and spoken to Rev. Thompson in person. I wanted to hear from them how they were conducting themselves at the pageant and what their intentions are concerning the LDS church. Here is what I have learned “from the horses mouth”. Neither one of them believe in harrasing methods of dealing with LDS people. In fact both of these Rev’s ussured me that they have a deep love for LDS people. They live in LDS communities and have many LDS friends. They obviously dont believe what the LDS church teaches, but there goal is to lovingly challenge the LDS doctrines in an attempt to discuss eternal truths. Much like the LDS missionaries do around the globe. This is not a religious debate … just an issue of fairness. If they were not yelling and screaming and harrasing people (which they said they werent)but simply handing out literature and shooting video, that does not seem like a crime to me. I admit their goal may be to challenge the LDS religion, but if it is defendable and ultimate truth – what are you worried about? Seems like a bit of a double standard doesnt it … the LDS church can send countless missionaries into the world to knock on doors of private homes and promote your religion. But when someone does the same thing on your home turf it is a crime? Not in my book.
PT
September 23, 2006 at 8:16 pm
PT,
After reading your post, objectively, I must agree with what you have to say. Truth will defend itself. We all agree on that, I think???
September 24, 2006 at 9:12 am
PT,
A couple of quick observations:
1. It doesn’t really much matter what the Rev’s. Kramer and Thompson subjectively felt about their activities when they were arrested by law enforcement. The fact is they were engaging in conduct led to their arrest. They were asked to stop engaging in that conduct by a law enforcement officer (not the LDS Church). They refused a lawful request, and were subsequently arrested.
2. If the good Revs. want to engage in honest theological discussion and debate, it would seem they could chose a manner that would not result in their arrest and the disturbance of others’ religious practice and belief.
3. Your comparison of this conduct (by the Revs.) and that of LDS missionaries worldwide misses the mark (widely). They are not the same. I managed to serve an entire two year mission in South America, and was able to do so without once having been arrested for preaching the Restored Gospel. This is the pattern of most, if not all missionaries, from what I read.
4. The good Revs’ can minister and witness as do LDS missionaries–is it too much to ask that the Revs’ also follow and obey the law?
Thanks for stopping by.
September 26, 2006 at 5:57 am
Hey Guy,
Thanks for letting me stop in and comment on your blog.
One last thought – after communicating with the “rev’s” … they both feel as if they were falsly arrested by the authorities and beleive they have proof that will exhonerate them. Is it possible that in the heart of Utah where the culture is almost entirely LDS … that these men were arrested, not because they were breaking the law, but because they were challenging the beliefs of the culture? The Apostle Paul found that to be true in his travels of spreading the gospel in hostile cultures. I think in the history of the Mormon church that Joesph Smith claimed the same thing.
I look forward to following this continueing drama.
Thanks again for letting me stop in!
ps – are you interested in some freindly conversation about LDS doctrine vs christianity?
Is so I would enjoy the conversation.
PT
September 27, 2006 at 9:23 am
PT: Thanks for your comments:
1. If the “rev’s” feel they were falsely arrested, can you please tell me have they instigated a civil lawsuit against the law enforcement agencies involved for false arrest?
2. I have not yet heard an outcome of these arrests. Do the “rev’s” have any paperwork they would like to share in terms of either an acquittal or other exoneration? Have them contact me and send me a copy so I can post it. Or, have them provide it to you, and you can in turn provide it to me. If they were falsely arrested I am certain they would want the world to know that.
3. LDS believers are Christians. The fact you deny LDS believers this designation tells me any “friendly conversations” we have about religion will not go very far and will not be productive. Your inability or unwillingness to admit that LDS believers are Christian speaks volumes.
I look forward to hearing from you about how these arrests have turned out.
September 27, 2006 at 10:47 am
Hey Guy,
I will keep my ears open to the conclusion of the arrests. I, like you, will be interested to see what happens.
Regarding #3 LDS believers are Christians.
As I mentioned before … if LDS doctrine is the true gospel and defendable it should be open to friendly discussion – I can honestly tell you I am a seeker of “the Truth”. If what you believe is truth maybe you can convert me to the LDS religion.
I can honestly say I am an avid fan of “religion” in general. I have studied the Bible (which is where fundamental Christianity comes from) and I have studied the book of Mormon and LDS doctrine. I would have to say that the fundamental doctrines of Christianity in no way agree with the fundamental LDS doctines. Doctrines like the person of God, Who Jesus Christ is, the virgin birth etc… To say that LDS believers are Christians would be a major contradiction. The belief systems of the two are in direct opposition to one another. Dont you have to believe the fundamentals of Christianity in order to call yourself a Christian?
Thanks for letting me stop by again
PT
September 27, 2006 at 1:36 pm
PT:
If that’s your belief, then we really don’t have anything more to discuss.
September 28, 2006 at 5:41 am
Hey Guy,
Its not “my” belief … as a studied fan of “religion” I would say its documented fact and I can substantiate it. Im wondering why a religious person like yourself who spent two years of his life looking for seekers of truth, wont even have a friendly discussion with a seeker … who God dropped in your lap? Puzzling at best! I would even give you this promise … if you can prove to me that fundamental Christianity and LDS beliefs are the same – I will change my position and seriously explore the LDS church as the right place for me and my family. If it is “Truth” that is what I want in my life.
Hope I can stop by again!
PT
September 28, 2006 at 10:08 am
Hey guys, I have enjoyed your discussion. I hope it will continue. I am finding this very helpful and stimulating.
I am a bit baffled that Guy is not willing to talk more about what the LDS Church believes on these issues. I don’t know a lot about LDS beliefs but from what I know they are very different than what I think most Christians believe.
May I aske a question? Either of you can answer.
Does the LDS Church believe that all “Christians” are Mormon? It would seem that if Mormons believe that they are Christians then Christians are also Mormons? Help me understand what you mean by Mormons are Christians because it doesn’t seem to me that you can have it both ways since Mormon and Christian docrtrine are very different. HELP?
Thanks in advance!
Thanks for letting me drop in, keep talking, it is very interesting.
October 3, 2006 at 3:23 pm
Dear sirs
I have read your comments with interest. I do not wish to engage in a debate but will say that honesty opens doors to a true seeker and deceit, well shuts them. I am sure you are both good men and thank you.
October 5, 2006 at 6:17 am
Dear LDS blog friends,
I must admit that your comments of … not wanting to defend your beliefs are puzzling at best????? If it is Joseph Smith you believe in, I wonder if he would be pleased with your efforts? If it is Jesus Christ you believe in, I wonder if he would be pleased with your efforts?
This has been an interesting and enlightening time together … it has, however, left me more confused about what the LDS religion is really all about especially since no one will comment on it???? I guess I leave where I started … if we are going to ridicule others who believe differently than we do (which is where this blog started) – then we better be willing and able to defend our beliefs … especially if we claim it is the “truth” that mankind needs.
A genuine seeker of truth,
PT
October 5, 2006 at 7:38 am
PT,
There are many people who the Savior never spoke to, because he knew they would not hear. To some that would not hear, he spoke only to provide either a chance for them to hear, or condemnation for not accepting his word.
There is no need here to “debate” our varying beliefs. I have plenty of resources to show you this or that, but if in your heart (and the way you come accross) you’d rather bait me into something that leads to contention, thanks, but no thanks.
You say we ridiculed others who believe differently, but that is not the case. These ministers can believe whatever the heck they want. I could care less. They are wolves in sheep’s clothing, though. They attempt to pretty up, dress their argument in “kind” “loving” “warm-hearted” points, but at their heart, their intent is to destroy my faith. That is not ridicule. It certainly is criticism, but not of their beliefs about Christ. Rather, it is about how they react to Mormonism. I really don’t care how they believe in Christ, or even how they envision the Savior. That’s their choice and freedom. But why are they trying to convince me I’m wrong? I’m not trying to convince them they are wrong about how they view the Savior, yet they try and convince me I am wrong in how I view the Savior.
Mormons believe in Christ. We go out to the world and preach His Gospel. Are these ministers going out to preach His Gospel, or are they going out to show how Mormons are wrong in how they view the Savior?
Notice the difference?
If you really want to learn about what Mormons believe, read the Book of Mormon. It is available online, or a free copy can be yours. Mormon.org is also a good site for information about our church.
As for me, I believe in Christ. He is my savior, and the more people adhere to His gospel, the happier they will be in their lives. The Book of Mormon is another testament of Christ, and will bring you closer to him than you currently are. That I attest from my own personal experience. As to the rest, well, it all comes down to whether or not the Book of Mormon is true. Read it. and then ask the Ultimate Source of information for the truth. Get down on your knees and ask God if the book is not true. Ask him if redhatmandan (aka me) is off his rocker for believing in the Book of Mormon or not. He might not answer than one, but he certainly will answer the former.
October 6, 2006 at 5:36 am
Dear redhatdanman,
Thanks for the reply … the one thing I dont like about e-mail is that you cannot hear the intent of the words. I can assure you I am not contentious about this conversation in any way. As I have mentioned many times before … I think gracious conversations about truth are healthy and engaging. I also believe that life is about finding the ultimate truth about God and his plan for our lives. I can assure you that in my coorespondense with the “revs” that they are doing nothing more than what LDS missionaries do around the world. Trying to challenge people to seek truth.
For example … Yesterday I had two LDS missionaries come to my friends home (where I was visiting with him) … and for over an hour they gave us literature and tried to convince me that my belief system was not right. We had a good talk about who God and Jesus Christ are. They believe and tried to convince me that God, Jesus Christ, the holy spirit are three distinct Gods. I believe they are one in the same and as one God, He does not change. I challenged them that the book of Mormon (and I have read and studied it)and the Bible do not agree with LDS doctine. For example here are scripture references that state clearly there is only one God and that he does not change. Mosiah 15:1-5; Alma 11:28,29;38-39;44, II Neph 31:21; Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5-6; Duet 4:35,39; Psalm 90:1-2; John 10:30; 14:7-11; II Neph 27:23; Moroni 8:18; 9:19; Malachi 3:6; Heb 13:8; Psalm 102:25-27
This is your quote from above
“But why are they trying to convince me I’m wrong? I’m not trying to convince them they are wrong about how they view the Savior, yet they try and convince me I am wrong in how I view the Savior.”
Yet this is exactly what the LDS missionaries do all the time … try to convince people they are wrong. That is what they tried to do with me yesterday. So why dont others have the same right to challenge you on what is truth and even try to convert you if they can prove to you that what you have been taught is incorrect?
You see I would challenge you to look up the references listed above and then convince me that there is more than one God and that he is ever changing. I was given the reverse challenge yesterday by the LDS missionaries. So, why is it ok for you to challenge people but not ok for others to challenge you?
I personally dont care about religious “titles” but I do care about Truth. If my belief system is wrong I will change … if yours is wrong will you?
your blog friend
PT
October 6, 2006 at 7:35 am
oh why oh why did i take the bait?
PT,
I’m sure you believe you’d change, but see, the thing is I don’t want you to change because you’re wrong. In fact, I don’t even want you to change. That’s up to you. Like I said, I don’t care who is wrong or right. I care what the Lord says when I go to him in prayer. I’ve received my answer from the Lord Himself.
Now, I am not a scholar, but I know my references, and can easily prove my points, and disprove all of yours, but, from my experience, this will not bring you to the truth, PT. Hence why I don’t want to continue further. It will be fruitless either way. I’ve made one person cry when I did this before, and I see no need to go down that route again.
I’m not here to challenge your beliefs. As a missionary, all I do is present the message. Hopefully I am worthy of bringing the Spirit with me. It is the Lord who challenges your views, not me. I have no power of change. Only the Lord can by touching your heart. So forgive me for not wanting to continue this.
October 6, 2006 at 9:05 pm
Dan,
I think your responses to PT are right on. My experience (over decades now) with evangelicals is that they are not interested in an honest religious discussion. PT’s approach is typical.
That said, I really don’t want this thread to degenerate into a religious debate on the merits of LDS doctrine from an evangelical perspective.
The thrust of this post was about two evangelical ministers who were arrested, not for going door to door as LDS missionaries; but, for breaking the law at LDS pageants.
PT, please limit your future comments focused on that issue. If you have documentation from the good “revs” showing the disposition of their cases, please forward it to me, and I will publish it on this blog–either way–exculpation or conviction.
Otherwise, I will begin to delete comments about wanting to debate LDS doctrine as a thread jack.
October 8, 2006 at 2:38 pm
Guy,
I will keep you posted on the “revs” if I hear any news.
Thanks for letting me stop by!
PT
ps redhatmandan … I would love for you to disporove all my points … no LDS missionary has been able to yet. When confronted with truth the answer I always get is … pray about it and get this feeling. From what I know of the scriptures … it says the “truth” will set you free not your feelings. Thanks for chating.
October 8, 2006 at 4:54 pm
PT,
Crudely put, but correct. Like Guy, I am done here. If you want a debate about the finer points of the Gospel, this is not the post to do it on.
October 9, 2006 at 7:38 am
redhatmandan or others …
I want to respectfully honor guys request since this is his blog. However, if you would like to help me understand some of the finer points or evens some very broad points that I have questions on … send me your e-mail and we can continue this in a different forum.
Guy thanks again for letting me stop by …
PT
October 23, 2006 at 8:28 am
Hey Guy,
Here is an update on the “Rev’s” … they were suppose to have a court date in early Sept. The prosecutor postponed the hearing and did not set another date. Does that seem out of the ordinary? Two men are handcuffed and taken to jail a couple of months ago and there isnt even a hearing date set? Makes me scratch my head – I will keep you posted if I can dig up any other info.
Thanks
PT
October 23, 2006 at 10:56 am
PT Thanks for the update. I don’t know whether it is ordinary or not, as I don’t practice criminal law in Utah; however, it seems to me there must be a document trail of something. Have the good “revs” provide you with the documentation from their case so we can confirm what has happened–dismissal, acquittal, conviction, what?
October 26, 2006 at 1:33 pm
Hey Guy,
A little clarification of my last e-mail. The last word from the rev’s situation was that the hearing date was postponed and that formal charges have not yet been filed. If I hear more I will report in.
Thanks
PT
October 27, 2006 at 9:50 pm
PT, Thanks for the update. I am interested in hearing about the ultimate resolution of this matter. Most offenses of this type, I suspect resolve without a formal trial, and in some type of plea in lieu of further prosecution. Please keep us posted.
November 4, 2006 at 9:52 am
Hey Guy,
I just found this on Rev Thompsons web page. I trust all of those who were enjoying a little “christian” bashing will change their tone.
KRAMER/THOMPSON COURT CASE
Just a quick update concerning the arrests that took place at the Clarkston Pageant a few months ago. Following is the letter I just received from our attourney…
Dear Chip:
I have been informed by the Clarkston Justice Court that the above-entitled case has been dismissed. If you have any questions, please contact our office.
Guy, Thanks for letting me stop by
PT
November 13, 2006 at 7:04 am
Hey Guy and friends,
No response from anyone for 10 days … interesting?
PT
November 13, 2006 at 7:31 am
PT: I’m not certain what response you’re looking for. I told you earlier that if you provide me some actual documentation, something I can verify, something real, that I’d post it. So far, nothing.
August 17, 2007 at 10:24 pm
I really wonder about people who want to (what my dad used to say) “make hamburger out of someone’s sacred cow.” I think that as human beings, we HAVE to have RESPECT for each other, and our diverse beliefs. Kramer has completely forgotten this. Mormons have a right to worship however they deem fit in our country, and others should just leave them alone. And not just leave them alone, RESPECT their neighbors for what they believe. Have the Mormons sent people to solicit Kramer & his flock where they worship? I doubt it. And honestly – would Christ do this? Instead of trying 24/7 to debunk what Kramer thinks is false, he should focus on what he thinks is true. I’ve been to his website – he has listed articles of his faith on his webiste, outlining the main beliefs – and not ONE of them say “we believe that we must hound Mormons for their beliefs,” yet it seems like that’s what he does a lot. It makes those of us who truly respect diversity in religion and culture and people very frustrated!