(Photo Trent Nelso, Salt Lake Tribune)
Well, Texas authorities have finally released the “affidavit” that serves as the basis to destroy the families of over four hundred chidren and hundreds of mothers and fathers. You can read the entire affidavit here: FLDS Affidavit A few observations and questions follow:
1. The affidavit, as I suspect most are in this type of situation, is based entirely on hearsay facts. This means that the facts alleged are not really facts the person who makes the affidavit has personally observed. In this case, Lynn McFadden, a woman over 18 years of age, and who is an Investigative Supervisor for the Department of Family and Protective Services (The Department) provided the sworn testimony which served as the basis for this affidavit.
2. Ms. McFadden claimed that she has personally reviewed the Department’s Original Petition For Protection of a Child in an Emergency and for Conservatorship in suit Affecting the Parent-Child Relationship (The Petition). This means, that the affidavit Texas Authorities relied upon to forcibly remove over 400 Children from the FLDS compound, is based on information that someone else apparently told Ms. McFadden. She is not the person to whom the original complaint was apparently made. Had she been, she could and should have so testified in her own sworn affidavit. It is also important to note that the allegations are not the actual allegations of the 16 year old minor child/mother. According to media reports, authorities can’t seem to find that person, as of yet. In fact, it is actually unclear from the affidavit whether Ms. McFadden was even present during any of this investigation. My sense is that she was not, or she would and should have so testified in the affidavit.
Now, I’m not suggesting that the McFadden affidavit would not be sufficient to remove perhaps the one pregnant minor child, who complained of sexual and child abuse, particularly if they actually found such a woman when they went in and initially searched the compound; however, I find it unbelievable that it would and could serve as the basis for a small armed invasion of an entire community, resulting in the the wholesale kidnapping under color of law hundreds of innocent children, with their mothers in tow.
3. Ms. McFadden’s allegations of the sexual and child abuse of the minor child, who herself is supposed to have an eight month old baby, and is currently several weeks pregnant with another child, chronicle a literal horror story of physical and sexual abuse. These allegations should absolutely be investigated, and if there is actual evidence to support such allegations, the abuser should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and never let out of prison, in my humble opinion. The abused minor child should certainly be removed from the compound, along with her own child, and placed in state custody. Further, the minor’s own parents should be investiaged for child abuse as well. If McFadden’s allegations are true, then the minor’s own parents’ actions are implicated and possibly merit criminal prosecution.
4. The remainder of the affidavit gets a little soft on why over 400 other children were removed from the compound. McFadden relates about how Department investigators while searching for the subject 16 year old minor victim:
observed a number of teenaged girls who appeared to be minors and who appeared to be pregnant, as well as several teenaged girls who already had given and had their own infants. Investigators determined that there is a wide-spread pattern and practice among the residents of the YFZ Ranch in which young minor female residents are conditioned to to expect and accept sexual activity with adult men . . .
OK, well, how many teeaged girls did they observe, one, two, five, ten, a hundred, four hundred? They appeared to be minors? How old, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19? How did they determine their ages in this whirlwind investigation? The age of consent in Texas is 17. So, the upper limits of the teen aged years, would appear to be outside the jurisdiction of The Department. How many are “several” teen aged girls? Did it number in excess of 400?
Appeared to be pregnant? You mean we don’t know? Texas didn’t find out whether there in fact were other pregnant teen aged children before removing over 400 other children from the compound? Certainly a good number of those children could not possibly have been pregnant, either from age limitations or gender.
How did the investigators determine there was a wide spread pattern and practice of anything at the compound? What investigation and what facts had they determined prior to their raid? How many of these observations are actually conclusions of the investigators and law enforcement at the scene? Why not take the other potential cases on a case basis, investigating each? Certainly none of these people were going to go anywhere.
5. Ms. McFadden concludes that based on their investigation The Department concluded that every single minor child at the compound, whether they had actually made any complaints at all, was in fact in immediate danger. Every, single minor child’s health and safety were in immediate danger. Every single minor child was the victim of neglect and/or sexual abuse. These are startling conclusions, but, not exactly based on any facts, at least as far as the facts are alleged in the “affidavit.”
CNN is reporting on the affidavit story.
Authorities raided the ranch Thursday. Since then, 416 children have been removed and placed in the custody of the state’s Child Protective Services, spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said.
Social workers have completed their work at the ranch, and said they believed all the children at risk had been removed, Meisner said.
It remains unclear whether the teen who reported being abused was among the children removed from the ranch or was taken from the compound under a different name before authorities arrived.
Well, I suppose if you have removed essentially all the children from the compound, that in fact any children who might have been at risk have certainly been removed. More troublesome is the report that authorities still can’t locate the original teen who made the complaint. It sounded like she would most certainly come forward at this point out of self preservation for no other reason.
USA Today also reports on the affidavit, and quotes former David Koresh attorney as criticizing the pervasiveness of the raid:
Some lawyers questioned the propriety of a raid based on an anonymous accusation.
“To rip up hundreds of parents and children and put them in a makeshift prison while you investigate to see if they did anything wrong is un-American,” said Dick DeGuerin, a lawyer who negotiated with federal authorities on behalf of David Koresh during the 51-day standoff at the Branch Davidian complex near Waco, Texas. “It’s against every tenet of due process and violates both the U.S. and Texas constitutions.”
One problem with USA Today’s story is that it links the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with the FLDS Church in their story’s side bar–another example of sloppy reporting and/or editing. I have sent an email to the USA Today accuracy editor, but have not received anything but an automated response, and the error still appears in their story.
So, as best I can tell, the state of Texas has forcibly removed over 400 children from their parents based on a double and possibly triple hearsay affidavit of a person who does not even appear to have been present at the compound at the time authorities performed their search. Based on the affidavit’s credible allegations, the raid appears to have been over broad and somewhat drastic.
Now that Texas has at least temporary legal custody of over 400 children, what now? The Deseret News reports that Texas may have bitten off just a bit more than it can chew:
The scale of the decision by Texas child welfare workers to take 416 children into state custody dwarfs any endangerment response in Utah — or anywhere else for that matter.
Removing 416 children from their homes would be an overwhelming task for any state, local public and private child welfare workers said Tuesday.
Texas is literally warehousing the kids taken from the compound, although many had been placed with relatives in nearby towns . . .
This particular group of FLDS “operates in a sense as one, huge extended family,” Richard Wexler, executive director of the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform, told the Deseret Morning News Tuesday evening. “A case can be made that taking away all the children is like taking away all of the siblings in a family where several children allegedly were raped and beaten.
“On the other hand, the facts don’t always turn out to be as CPS alleges,” he noted.
Wexler, who keeps close tabs on child welfare agencies nationwide — including Texas and Utah — said Texas is particularly unprepared to take so many children at once.
“For several years, (Texas) has been going through a foster-care panic, with huge surge in removals in the wake of deaths of children “known to the system,”‘ he said.
Whether or not these children needed to be removed, their suffering has been increased because Texas has taken so many other children there is little room for these children in the system,” he said. “And that is a lesson every state should remember.”
An option like that or an all-out call for help is really the only option at that scale, local child safety advocates believe. They said while the welfare of the children in the case is clearly the top priority, they privately said they wonder if the move might be a kind of pre-emptive “better safe than sorry” strategy.
“I certainly agree that the way children — particularly young women and girls — are treated is de facto abuse or worse,” one state Division of Child and Family Services caseworker said. “But from what I’ve seen these kids are in no way neglected; not nearly to the degree of some of kids we meet here and around Salt Lake.”
Update 4/9/08 8:41 a.m. As Justin points out from comment #1 below, the Salt Lake Tribune is now reporting Texas authorities may have named the wrong man in the search and arrest warrants . . . oops~
Update 4/9/08 9:30 a.m. If you haven’t seen Brooke Adams’ Plural Life Blog you should read her entries. Brooke is a Salt Lake Tribune reporter, and is now on sight in West Texas. She makes some good points and has some fascinating entries . . . stuff not showing up in her regular reporting columns. Brooke is doing an excellent job from West Texas.
I just don’t see a good ending to this story. Hopefully the actual court hearings that are scheduled will be able to sift out the facts from the fiction and set in motion the best possible resolution to this sad and unfortunate story.
Steve Evans has also opened up a Thread over at BCC, with some very good comments as well.
Ken Driggs, FLDS Historian (Hat Tip Justin)
From an interview with Arizona Attorney Mike Piccarreta, an attorney for Warren Jeffs
As Tucson attorney Mike Piccarreta follows the news this week about the raid in Texas, he doesn’t like what he’s seeing.
“You shouldn’t be allowed to search a whole village on the basis of a phone call and not only search the area where there might be evidence but search every residence in the village? That’s never happened in American jurisprudence,” he says.
Piccarreta says what most people know about FLDS is from people who’ve left the religion because the fundamentalists rarely talk to outsiders.
And that’s partly why Piccarreta says their reputation is often misunderstood. “The mainstream media has focused on the sexual aspect or the titillation aspect of it, without even recognizing that that’s a basic tenet of their belief.”
Piccarreta says the raid in Texas is reminiscent of one in Arizona in 1953.
It’s called the Short Creek Raid: more than 400 Mormon fundamentalists were taken into custody.
But public reaction viewed the raid with sympathy, saying it was as un-American.
“This religion has a long history of being persecuted by the government,” Piccarreta says.
“This is a real religion, it’s being persecuted and it’s not right what’s going on,” he says.
Grits for Breakfast Blog–questions the validity of the search warrant
Grits for Breakfast—recalls the Short Creek Raid
Photo Blog–Features incredible photos of the raid taken by Trent Nelson, Photo Journalist–a must see
April 9, 2008 at 8:17 am
The Tribune reports that the wrong man may have been named in the warrants.
April 9, 2008 at 8:39 am
OOPS! . . . Thanks so much Justin, I’ll also include a blurb in the post. As always, excellent research by you.
April 9, 2008 at 9:26 am
Two questions and comments:
Has anyone found out if the girl that supposedly gave the information has been found? Far as I can tell this girl is still a no-show.
At what point does it become common practice to take the children away from all parents of a group because one family in that group abused their kids? If the family abused their children take the kids, but don’t take the neighbor’s kids too just to be sure.
I dislike the FLDS church but I firmly believe this raid has overstepped the bounds of the 4th Amendment.
April 9, 2008 at 10:14 am
Dom, Amen.
Guy, thanks for the up-to-date coverage. This whole thing just keeps becoming more surreal.
April 9, 2008 at 10:15 am
If there is prima facie evidence of having young women marry while underage then I honestly don’t see the problem. As I said past evidence of the group, plus the call, plus showing up and seeing lots of 13 – 16 year old pregnant women is more than enough justification in my book.
Of course we’re still at the stage where the facts aren’t known. So perhaps facts will change things. But given the purported claims then I honestly can’t fathom why people are troubled by this.
April 9, 2008 at 10:36 am
Clark,
If there is prima facie evidence of anything, it is that one girl was underage, has had a baby, and is currently pregnant. I’m not certain I would categorize it as prima facie evidence. It is evidence based on double, possible triple hearsay–which for this circumstance, i.e., removing that one girl from the compound, is probably legally sufficient and wise.
Past evidence, even assuming it does exist (and it may) certainly isn’t sufficient to authorize authorities to search every inch of the compound, including their sacred temple, and seize over 400 children of this group at this time.
All we know from the actual affidavit is that some investigators at the compound thought they saw teen aged women who appeared pregnant. That’s a far cry from actually finding or even having complaints from actual under aged and pregnant teen aged girls.
All the more reason to investigate and actually obtain facts, rather than mere conclusions, before taking every minor child from their parents.
People are troubled by this because based on what is actually known, or what has actually been reported in the media, a small and very unpopular religious group of people have been crushed by the State of Texas, and the Constitutional protections meant to protect people in these circumstances have just been thrown to the wind.
April 9, 2008 at 11:00 am
As I said past evidence of the group, plus the call, plus showing up and seeing lots of 13 – 16 year old pregnant women is more than enough justification in my book.
Define “lots”, Clark. CNN’s report last night confirmed that they had identified 3 girls as “probably pregnant minors.”
April 9, 2008 at 11:03 am
[...] vast and difficult a scenario for me to get my head around, but I wanted to give a big heads-up to Guy Murray’s continuing coverage of what’s going on with the FLDS compound in Texas. It’s heart-rending and difficult, [...]
April 9, 2008 at 11:29 am
The Department’s determination that there is an immediate danger to the emotional and physical welfare of every single boy is based upon the claim that boys are expected, after they become adults and their leaders determine it appropriate, to enter into a spiritual marriage with a female member of the church, and the female may be a minor (“resulting in them becoming sexually [sic] perpetrators”).
Am I missing something here?
April 9, 2008 at 11:30 am
Texas stepped in it this time. You’d think they might have gone and talked to the authorities in Utah and Arizona who have experience with this sort of thing.
Instead it’s becoming apparent to me that they went into this planning to seize all the children, and are depending on outrage and bias against the FLDS group to cover their backside.
What if this girl that made the complaint never materializes? There is going to be a huge Constitutional problem with the actions of Texas.
The end result: The children will be returned, their will be greater restrictions placed on the Texas authorities ability to control this group, and the FLDS will become even more insular and unwilling to cooperate with Law enforcement.
By going for the big overwhelming force they have just shot themselves in the foot for any future actions.
April 9, 2008 at 11:40 am
Thanks Guy. The whole think makes my stomach turn. I am becoming more and more skeptical a the yw that made the call really exists. I would not be too shocked if it was concocted so as to go into the community. Where are all the lawyers to defend these people? Why does the media keep talking about putting these kids in foster care if their mothers are fit parents? They have a much higher risk of being abused in Texas foster care than in their homes, and that according to a Texas foster care study done 10 years ago.
April 9, 2008 at 11:40 am
I’d disagree there. If this group has done this in the past on a systematic level (and there are plenty of Utah people claiming such) then the state has a compelling interest.
As I said I don’t know what the facts are. If there are even 3 underaged married women though that seems sufficient for me to suggest systematic abuse.
If the original complain turns out to be fictitious though then yes, the police will have a lot of explaining to do. I’d not though that this is true with fake tips to crack houses as well. Something that the public, unfortunately, doesn’t pay enough attention to. So don’t take me to be excusing police misconduct.
I just think that there is pretty good reason to think abuse was taking place from what I’ve read. If so and if done on a systematic level then the police actions are justified.
April 9, 2008 at 11:45 am
If so and if done on a systematic level then the police actions are justified.
Clark, they have taken 400+ children from their homes, the vast majority of whom appear to not have been abused. How is this police action justified??
April 9, 2008 at 11:51 am
Where are all the lawyers to defend these people?
They’ve been working behind the scenes. There will be a hearing today. (They actually moved to block the search of the temple over the weekend, but the judge apparently put off argument on the motion until the search was a done deal.)
April 9, 2008 at 11:51 am
Clark,
The problem is, a pretty good reason to think abuse was taking place may not be sufficient justification, constitutionally, for what Texas did. That is, they (almost) certainly were justified in going in to get the girl that made the call, assuming that she exists. They were arguably justified in doing something about the three girls who appeared underaged and pregnant (although even there, what they were justified in doing is unclear; there are plenty of underaged pregnant girls in the U.S.–that doesn’t per se mean they were forced to have sex with adult men).
If, however, they had gathered some sort of evidence, or presented some sort of factual justification that their broad efforts were warranted, there wouldn’t be a question here. They seemed, however, to have decided that their cause was righteous (which it may have been–I’m not defending forced marriage of minors to adults); however, constitutionally, being in the right is insufficient. As a cop, I may know that the guy driving there has a cache of weapons in his car or a brick of cocaine but, without reasonable cause, I can’t pull him over. Even if he does. The Texas authorities haven’t yet demonstrated that they had reasonable cause to take 400 children from their homes, and, if they did have the reasonable cause, I doubt they’d be as vague as they’ve been so far.
April 9, 2008 at 11:51 am
Clark,
They have no evidence the pregnant girls were raped–that their babies’ fathers aren’t also minors. They still don’ have just cause.
April 9, 2008 at 11:53 am
(Not, of course, to imply that I’m a cop—just hypothetically, if I were a cop.)
April 9, 2008 at 11:58 am
And, of course, if I have seen the weapons or drugs, I have reasonable cause. But if I know because guys who have tinted windows and drive around this neighborhood at night tend to have guns and/or drugs, that probably isn’t good enough “knowledge.”
April 9, 2008 at 12:13 pm
http://religionblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/04/for-a-very-different-pov-of-th.html
April 9, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Another article on the man named in the arrest warrant is here. He denies having visited the Texas community recently.
April 9, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I will say this is very weird since huge swaths of young men between 17 – 21 in Texas sleep with women from 15-17. So there may be a double standard going on here.
However if there is a community demand that they accept the idea that one ought be sexually active with girls 12-17 then that’s a huge problem.
April 9, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Well I’m not a lawyer so I can’t speak to that. However I’d simply note that child protective services doesn’t work under the same rules as say drug raids. Maybe it should but it doesn’t.
If there was a legitimate call then that combined with the other information seems legitimate to separate the children and start doing interviews.
April 9, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Ken Driggs, a lawyer and historian who has written on the FLDS, appeared on TV this morning to discuss the case.
April 9, 2008 at 12:51 pm
[...] FLDS Church raided Some good blog posts relating to this. For some legal commentary, Texas Authorities Release FLDS Raid Affidavit Messenger and Advocate For some ?cultural? aspects Tribune Blogs — Polygamy Files: The Tribune’s blog on the plural life [...]
April 9, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Thanks for linking to the Driggs interview, Justin. He does a fine job of addressing the issues at hand.
April 9, 2008 at 1:20 pm
It is becoming painfully obvious that this will be one for the lawyers to argue out. Has every aspect of the typical never-ending legal proceedings that settle nothing and satisfy and serve no one.
However, I do find some relief in that none have been murdered — so far.
April 9, 2008 at 3:35 pm
Let’s see–we’re gonna take the boys out of the compound because some time in the future they may be encouraged/required/forced to marry an underage girl, and therefore they might become sexual predators, and for this reason we cart them all off to a concentration warehouse?
Between these Texas CPS folks and ICE (who just kept a client in detention for two weeks without any colorable claim to an immigration law violation), I’m beginning to hear ever stronger echoes of “jack-booted thugs.”
If there’s child abuse, then arrest and try the suspect(s). If he’s convicted, then put him in jail and toss the keys in the swamp. But somebody’s gotta be like the kid in A Fly Went By and yell “STOP!!!”
And then they should take that Watkiss guy who provides “speculation with a sneer” for the CNN crowd and force him to marry Nancy “I never met a suspect I didn’t immediately convict in my ever-pure heart” Grace, and then banish them both to St. Helena.
April 9, 2008 at 9:54 pm
After having read the affidavit (based on hearsay) and reviewing as much of the transcripts as I could, it appears fairly evident that there have been massive violations of First, Fourth and Fourteenth Amendment rights. There was no need to search the entire compound. The warrant was so overbroad that it is a travesty.
It also appears to me that the lawyers for the FLDS are doing a half-assed job of defending their rights. This appears to be more about turning the kids over to the Baptists than about getting a hearing in time to get to the fact necessary to support even removing one child. I will state categorically that there is not a sufficient basis for removing all 400+ children from the compound. The Constitution has been violated and no one cares because these people act and look differently that those in Texas. Given the Texas track record of convicting perfectly innocent children, and the number who have died in foster care, the people carrying this out ought to be fired and competent people should take over.
I would never condone child abuse or the kinds of marriage between older men and young women. But the answer is not to displace all of the women and children and blatant disregard for their Constitutional rights. Where is the outcry against this blatant violation of rights? It seems we have early Mormons and the rest of the nation all over again — except this time the Mormons sit silently on the sidelines while it happens.
April 9, 2008 at 9:57 pm
The Department’s determination that there is an immediate danger to the emotional and physical welfare of every single boy is based upon the claim that boys are expected, after they become adults and their leaders determine it appropriate, to enter into a spiritual marriage with a female member of the church, and the female may be a minor (”resulting in them becoming sexually [sic] perpetrators”).
Well, is Texas going to honor Equal Protection and also take away all of the illegitimate children of underage mothers and fathers? Are they going to make sure that all of the under-age fathers are criminalized and all of the under-age mothers are made into victims?
April 10, 2008 at 3:08 am
this is ridiculous. I cannot (as an Non American) believe that LDS members are justifying leaving children in a community where the law has been openly flouted, young women are brainwashed or intimidated into submitting to sexual abuse, and all you can complain about is the Constitutional rights of the abusers?
Astounding.
April 10, 2008 at 6:14 am
Anne: As a non-American perhaps you have no appreciation for Constitutional rights — which we regard as God given and not something we cast off at a whim. However, they are absolutely essential to our ordered government and protecting the rights of those deemed innocent until proven guilty. As judge, jury and execution, I can see how you would free yourself of the need to have sufficient evidence before acting. I can see that you would feel free to judge all of the mothers and all of the fathers of these children without evidence that really implicates them in the least. That is the prerogative of someone who gets to judge and execute before looking at any evidence at all. However, I’d hate to be a defendant in any trial where you had any say in matters.
Further, the evidence that young women are being brainwashed is called by any other name raising children to believe what the parents believe. If that is child abuse, then any religious teaching of children is abuse. Note I am not justifying child abuse or older men forcing young, underage girls (or anyone else for that matter) to submit to sexual favors. However, the fact that you simply presume that all men in the compound are guilty of such crimes puts you in the company of those folks in Texas who don’t need any justifying grounds for leaping to such conclusions either. The charges are based on hearsay — on someone’s testimony who doesn’t have personal knowledge. Investigation is warranted — not removing all children because at least one was beat by her husband. Have we learned nothing from the Salem witch trials?
That said, no one is justifying or looking the other way on child abuse. As I said, the appropriate course of actions was to do an investigation into the scope of any criminal practices and then, if the evidence warrants, take further action. The “lifestyle” has been going for at least 4 years in Texas and long before that in Arizona, a few weeks to conduct a proper investigation is certainly not unwarranted.
Finally, how do you feel about all children simply being taken away without sufficient evidence? If that happened to you, undoubtedly you would want the very constitutional protections you seem to so blithely ignore now.
April 10, 2008 at 6:30 am
Having worked as an ad litem, a big problem is the number of kids who are sexually abused while in the foster system in Texas.
/Sigh.
April 10, 2008 at 8:07 am
Seriously, Stephen, you nailed it. Where does the State of Texas think they can put all these kids? My limited knowledge of foster care systems is that there is no way any state could handle an influx of 400plus kids into the system. And were the mothers charged with abuse as well? Why were they separated from their mothers, too?
The whole thing makes my stomach turn. All of it.
April 10, 2008 at 8:15 am
One hopes that the Church will step up and offer LDS homes as foster parents. That’ll be less of a shock and will avoid the huge problem of fundamentalist Evangelicals going all weird or worse pedophiles taking over.
April 10, 2008 at 4:00 pm
Clark, I agree – some LDS outreach to take in these kids, and their mothers, would be helpful.
I am no fan of FLDS, (they creep me out, frankly–there, I’ve said it). But, that’s no excuse to blame the victims here, the 400+ children and the wives, and those men who did nothing wrong, too (presuming some did).
And there are no laws against most of the things that bother us: you can have sex with as many women or men as you want, having kids with any or all of them, teen pregnancy is not against the law, and the issues of consent and statutory rape are less stringent in TX than some other states. Plus, there are parental consent allowances to get around the minimum age requirements. Statutory rape charges have to be reported to be prosecuted. These are just laws. Just the foundation of our society.
The ACLU (not the LDS) are the ones who should be all over this situation.
April 11, 2008 at 2:05 am
Blake, the religion IS the child abuse. This is the distinction which you are too close to the fire to make.
April 11, 2008 at 9:22 am
We all need to take into consideration that if others didn’t like what you do or believe and raided your home or town merely because a supposed allegation. Put ourselves in thier situation. Sure those who are actually being abused, get them out, not the whole group. are we becoming the Nazis and the minorities the Jews? This has gone way out of control off of no show victim. What are the authorities going to do in court when there is no actual victim especially the one who supposeldly called? They are humans too, yes they may have odd beliefs but who doesn’t at the view point of someone else. Let them go home and talk with them at their home so they feel respected and may actually give some answers. Just because we are the “greatest nation ever” doesn’t mean we need to be like WWII Germany.
have some understanding man.
Respectfully
April 11, 2008 at 9:33 am
Sorry if I am have been misunderstood. And I think I may be. My comment wasn’t to any particular person nor am I ranting of how wrong our nation or states are, but just say and commenting my frustration of the facts or lack of facts that have been brought forth. I have read some of the posts here and seems as though most are having their stomaches being turned of what the authorities have done and are doing with the situation. I think we are a people should and could work with those if they want to be worked with or helped. show them that we are willing to help according to how they want to be helped and not the way the social worker department thinks they should help. The children shouldn’t be forced to be educated. We can offer but not force. and that goes with many things that our nation does with situations. All I can say that this situation is very sad for the FLDS who are only genuinely trying to live their religion. just like many of not all people do in the world.
Again respecfully,
Aaron
April 11, 2008 at 12:10 pm
Here is an update from ksl in utah that I got.
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) — Search warrants show that police have seized dozens of documents from a polygamist ranch in Texas, including marriage and birth records.
Copies of the warrants were released Friday. The list of records also refers to a “cyanide poisoning document,” but offers no other explanation.
More than 80 pages of items have been taken from the Yearn for Zion Ranch. The ranch is own by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Among the items seized were computer equipment, letters, school and medical records.
Some medical records listed the name of the 16-year-old girl whose call triggered the weeklong raid. But her name was identical to that of several girls in the sect.
(Copyright 2008 by The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.)
One problem I have with this news is they say they found the name that matches the 16 year old girl who called BUT before the raid they said the girl was ananoymous which they did not know her name. How is it that they “find” a name that matches the anonoymous caller? stories are not matching and if it is just a lie just to brake up the FLDS or something then we can all see that they are only digging themselves a big hole. Because the authorities’ stories are not matching. Maybe I am missing something or information that I have not read that i might be missunderstanding.
April 11, 2008 at 12:34 pm
ABC reports that the caller provided a name when she called.
April 11, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Texas law states that a person under 17 is required to have parental permission to be married. I think in the cases of the 16 year old girls, that’s pretty likely to have happened, no? Funny how the media leaves this out.
They have no evidence, as you indicate. Excellent work… how this is allowed to occur is mind-boggling. This time, the government tyrants went after pacifists, rather than those, like the Davidians, who exercised their rights fully.
The affidavit references “adult males over 17″ and then “a child” whose date of birth puts her at nearly 20. Interesting logic, is it not? And yet a senile judge failed to notice this.
Also interesting that these women and children are separated from their family and are not permitted visitors according to media reports. A little gitmo experience perhaps, or something more subtle? I’m sure by the end of this, they will have all sorts of coerced statements as “evidence” they did the right thing.
April 11, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Also, a commenter here noticed how at first they did not have a name, and the name was not given anywhere in the documents they filed, and after they seized the records kept by the Church, suddenly they have “matched” the name, and claim several of the women there have this name… Definitely something wrong there.
I’d also like to see a picture of this “guard tower” the mythical 16 year old girl they are all quoting mentions. Funny how they let 16 year olds have cell phones there, but have a “guard tower” making sure nobody “escapes”. Funny how the media hasn’t found a picture of the guard tower… I guess it’s the same place that girl is, along with Bin Laden, and those WMDs.
April 13, 2008 at 10:33 pm
I really want to know if there is a teen who really did call using a cell phone belonging to an FLDS member. The children have all received medical exams so the Child Protective Agency certainly can tell who is a few months pregnant by HCG levels. Plus the girl has one child. How hard is it to narrow this down to a handful of girls?
It is upsetting that a pervert such as Jeffs can control the minds of all of these people and make them rape their children rather than protect them. He is primarily responsible for the trauma that is occurring to these children. The parents have given up their good judgment and kicked out young boys and allowed their daughters to be raped. It is going to be a very hard thing to instill healthy values in these adults so that they can raise their children in a healthy environment. The state with its limitations may not be the perfect entity to reform these people, but unfortunately they have had to undertake this task.
April 13, 2008 at 11:20 pm
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5697869.html
On Sunday, state officials enforced a judge’s order to confiscate the cell phones of the women and children removed from the sect’s private ranch.
The emergency order was sought by attorneys ad litem for 18 girls from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, who are now in the legal custody of the state, Gonzalez said.
State District Judge Barbara Walther signed the order. It calls for the removal of all electronic communication devices including phones, PDAs and smart phones.
In a copy of the order provided to the AP, lawyers said the phones should be confiscated “to prevent improper communication, tampering with witnesses and to ensure no outside inhibitors to the attorney-client relationship.”
Gonazalez estimated that at least 50 phones were taken.
The children are currently being housed in San Angelo’s historic Fort Concho and at the nearby Wells Fargo pavilion. About 140 women from the ranch are also with the children, although they are not in state custody.
In their telephone calls, women and children had been calling relatives to report they are living in cramped conditions — cots, cribs and playpens are lined up side-by-side — and that many of the children are afraid.
An FLDS man who told the AP that his family members are among those inside the fort called the removal of phones a punishment.
“This was nothing more than retaliation of CPS to punish those who were disclosing what is really happening behind that wall of this concentration camp,” said Don, who asked that only his first name be used.
Affidavits filed by child protection workers said that upon investigating, they found a pattern of abuse existed at the Yearning for Zion ranch in Eldorado, south of San Angelo.
Authorities said they have not yet located the teenage mother whose call for help triggered the raid.
The Washington Post contributed to this report.
April 15, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Just an added note, in the 2005 legislative session (1year after the flds came here) the texas legislature changed the minimum age of parental consent to marriage from 14 to 16. Also expressing that it was solely for the flds, the author of the bill also said something to the effect that it was his finest work, and he was very proud of it, I dont have a link right now, I’m on a phone, but will post one when I get home.
April 15, 2008 at 9:53 pm
I am amazed that anyone is trying to downplay this, As if it is not a big deal that these 16 year old girls are brainwashed into accepting sex from 40 year old men.. It doesn’t matter how many they have done this to, its that they have done it! Thats statutory rape, and thats all there is to it, even at the age of 16 a girl cannot legaly concent in the state of texas.. I also point out what William mentioned, They changed the age from 14 to 16 soley for the flds.. These girls are brainwashed into thinking that they must have children with these older men, and if they leave the compound they are condemned to hell.. It’s all about control, Most of the people in this group don’t even know who the president of the united states is.. because they don’t have radio or television, and definitely not internet.. Its sickening, they kick out most of the boys at the age of 18, so the older men can have more wives, There obviously has to be a ratio, 1 man to 8 wives, etc..
April 15, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Someone mentioned it will be hard to instill values into these parents.. It will be next to impossible, these teachings are ingrained so deep I do not believe that they can think for themselves..
April 15, 2008 at 10:17 pm
[...] Let’s take it one at a time. The first paragraph requires some sworn affidavit. I’ve already discussed this topic and concede that Texas probably had a sufficiently worded affidavit (even though based on hearsay) [...]
April 15, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Wow. That image could be right out of Big Love.
April 16, 2008 at 9:47 am
To the attorney’s in this horrible case. In the name of God you need to use this tragedy as a platform for parental rights as well as a platform to try and repeal CAPTA which is the beastly head of this system that pays agents grand amounts of money to kidnap children under false allegations. I know because I had the same thing happen to me with my baby 2 year old girl being forcibly removed at night by cops without a warrant 2 nights before christmas. and this beastly system just tried to adopt her out. After a trial of 2 weeks and thousands of dollars later, my parental rights are still intact, but I still can only see my baby one hour a week. I really feel for these mothers and if any of you read this and want to know how to fight these nazi’s you call me in california at 408-401-1400 my name is Paul and I am dedicated to destroying CPS, for the tears on my baby’s face and mine. WE MUST REPEAL CAPTA OR THIS WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN TO OUR FAMILIES…SOMEONE CALL ME AND LET’S FIGHT TOGETHER
April 17, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Lynn McFadden is a man, not “a woman over 18.” If you screw up such a basic piece of info, what else did you get wrong? Oh, well, blogs don’t have to be accurate, just inflammatory.
April 17, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Chuck, where is your evidence that 16 year old girls are “accepting sex” from 40 year old men?
If you have any, which I’m sure you do not, feel free to share it, otherwise the only thing you have proven is your ignorance. There’s a reason not a single criminal charge has been filed in relation to this act of mass kidnapping.
The FLDS believe that when females are biologically ready to have children, it is time for them to be married. This is in contrast to a secular society of teenage fornicators. Frankly, I think the latter is worse than the former.
In a society that provides “sex education” to 12 year olds, and only recognizes a 16 year old as an adult, if they murder someone and the government wants to murder them in return, the sense of self-righteous indignation is laughable. No surprise this happened in Texas.
Most of the girls marrying at 16, are marrying 18 and 19 year old males, from the accounts I’ve seen, which is precisely why the wording in official documents is “females under the age of 17… males over the age of 17″.
If you have a link of a purported marriage to someone in their 40s by a 16 year old girl, Chuck, let’s see it… Like the media, your slander only pretends to be substantiated by the anonymous phone call from a mythical 16 year old who still has not been located, because she does not exist.
Texas law allows marriage with parental consent at 16, regardless, so if you take issue with it, then lobby to have the law changed. Perhaps 21 is a good age for the government to allow one the religious sacrament of marriage?
Do not think for one minute that the godless, degenerate secular American society with it’s pregnant, and baby-killing 13 and 14 year old harlots is superior to a community that recognizes the purpose of procreation and enshrines it within marriage.
I may not agree with their values, but I can still recognize which society is more or less moral.
April 18, 2008 at 5:27 pm
I’m not for the FLDS. In fact I find it quite disturbing. Are there not at least younger men for these younger women? Possibly consider the idea that pregnancy is dangerous to a full grow woman so duhh on 12-17 year old girls. But frankly society has gone to hell in a handbasket. Unless the state is going to do something about every young pregnant girl and every religion, sect, cult, or otherwise that indoctrinates young children, then they really should cool there jets on this one.
Frankly they attacked this group because the mass majority of people are willing to point and mock and they know they will most likely get away with it. It scares me, What if Christians get attacked next? What if the Bible and it’s teachings becomes so unpopular that everyone wants to “stone” the Christians next. There are rights in this county and if everyone stops standing up for what our four father’s devoted their lives for, heaven help us all.
April 21, 2008 at 7:34 pm
[...] just read the FLDS Raid affadavit over on Guy Murray’s, The Messenger and Advocate blog. It’s more alarming than what I thought it would be. No hard evidence, just vague information [...]
April 22, 2008 at 4:54 pm
this is the government at it worst
taking young boy and girls from ther home on information that was not true leave it to the state of texas with the highest excution rate. my god what are they thinking tramatising so many children
April 22, 2008 at 10:39 pm
Interesting.
May 12, 2008 at 4:42 pm
Ed Carter is as close to right in this matter as anyone, I think. Anyone is stupid to believe something they’ve read or have been told because they’ve read it or have been told. Ha haha, the poor masses of stupidity. And to have you at the helm jurisprudence, law enforcement, “protective services” and God knows where else? Where’s the importance of the proof? Now to save face, I’ll be watching your next act in this tragic comedy, to see to what lenghts you will go this time to save your own likely hideous way of life.
May 12, 2008 at 5:00 pm
Yes, and one more thing. This is exactly the kind of thing our forfathers were trying to give us protection from in our 2nd ammendment right. Not to protect our home so much from a burgaler or to hunt, but to protect ourselves from government gone bad. “Is peace so precious and life so dear so as to cost at the chains of slavery?” If your running my government you need to know the rest of the quote, for the rest of you who may have forgotten or never knew, it’s “give me liberty or give me death!”
May 15, 2008 at 2:24 am
“If you have a link of a purported marriage to someone in their 40s by a 16 year old girl, Chuck, let’s see it… Like the media, your slander only pretends to be substantiated by the anonymous phone call from a mythical 16 year old who still has not been located, because she does not exist.
Texas law allows marriage with parental consent at 16, regardless, so if you take issue with it, then lobby to have the law changed. Perhaps 21 is a good age for the government to allow one the religious sacrament of marriage?
Do not think for one minute that the godless, degenerate secular American society with it’s pregnant, and baby-killing 13 and 14 year old harlots is superior to a community that recognizes the purpose of procreation and enshrines it within marriage.”
Firstly, do some history. The reason Jeffs is in jail in the first place is for several counts to being accessory to rape, especially a 14 year old girl who brought charges for being forced to marry her cousin and “consummate” it: read Elissa Wall’s memoir “Stolen Innocence. She begged her 19 year old husband to stop and turns out he didn’t. How is that “enshrining” the sacred institution of marriage? Also, this is a fundamentalist church that follows Jeffs “teachings” to a T (in taking younger wives, especially) you don’t think this story happens more often in his compounds than this istance?
Secondly, it is a shame so many children were taken, but in a lot of instances that was because the police just couldn’t collect testimony from them with their mothers in their ear. Many mothers were reported to be screaming “Don’t tell them anything!” as they left the compound, and lied about their childrens’ ages when questioned themselves. This is probably why information is so muddled right now, especially as there are little records of these children/families outside the compound.
I don’t care what religious doctrine it is, to bring fundamentalist ideas into action that are clearly wrong (marrying off young girls and others religious’ hatred of homosexuality and sexual “immoral actions”) is absolutely wrong. This community is not excercising liberty… the members are not even allowed to permanently leave! (if, that is, they formulate how to think for themselves)
Ed Carter, get off your moral high ground and see how messed up and brainwashed this “compound” really is.
May 18, 2008 at 11:00 am
I would like to know how Texas handels other
minorites who’s under age rape and sex re-
lated question have arised in the last 20 years. The Mexican illegal immigrants have
100′s of young girls forced into simular situation and there were no confication of children from alleged mothers or undocumented parents saying they are thier children. There are 100′s cases where under
age girls are forced into marriage or slave
shops for the purpose of prostitution. It would seem illegal immagrants have more rights than children born legally in the United States of America. The concern Texas
is aggravating is that these families from
Arizona and Utah have came to a living com-
pound in Texas and now are asking for wel-
fare because the Federal government has in-
carserated several of the key supporters who
have been supporting their system of living,
and now Texas doesn’t want to be strapped with the extra cost of support. Simply amaz-
ing.. A real course for these people would
be to say they are here as tourist or woemen who have taken up as refugees away from the unbearable harrassment from their previous living situations imposed upon them by the federal government and just wanted to have babies. Beautifull babies that brings joy into thier lives, without the constraints of meddeling federal agents, and now they are being persucuted by the very state agencies who have violated
thier civil rights. No one has yet proven that these woemen have married more than one male husband, or if they are even married.. Yet, Texas raided their living quarters on the basis of Poligmy, rape, under age girls having babies.. Los Angeles should be soo lucky, they have hundreds of thousands of unwanted underage girls having babies out of wedlock, from rape charges never filed.. The abortion clinics are full of these cases, and in Texas, mothers with children wanting to have babies is a crime. Texas was ok! with the system of these people as long as some one else was paying for their existance, but when these woemen lost their support and filed for state assistance a whole new demeanor awoke in Texas, a demeanor that didn’t go after illegal immigrants, did not go after refugees from Katrina who also have alot of under age girls and mothers who could not prove where they were born or who their parents are.. But it is OK! to go after the families from this compound.. Simply Amazing. Maybe it was the long dresses that scares them, or the simple life style that scares the Texa state agencies, or maybe it is that these woemen and children
are white and God, forbid white people don’t act like this.. Get real Texas, Darfu, Chad, Somalia, Sudan, Southeast Asia, India, and ex-russian countries are full of millions of simular situations and you are now outraged, Americans are now outraged, of course we don’t want to be straped for the cost of living of these woemen and childred either. So, to make up for closing our eyes for soo long Texas
and America opened up there eyes to a Texas compound. More lies to make something legal, this must be a Texa way of life. Create a lie to justify something in order to make it legal to carry out an atrosity.
May 19, 2008 at 9:40 am
Initially I was very sympathetic to the cause of the FLDS vs state of Texas. Then my wife started reading a book to me called, “Escape” by Carolyn Jessop, former wife to Merril Jessop who is now the de facto leader of the FLDS group while Warren Jeffs is in prison.
I’m still sympathetic to the plight of the woman and children and some of the men, but overall, this is a religious cult that has spun out of control. Carolyn’s detailing of the abuses that take place as a simple matter of course of living that lifestyle was appalling to me. Yes, there are many victims–but there is a significant amount of brainwashing. These people are living behind the Iron Curtain right here in the USA. What they live in is not a community, it is a prison compound!
Again, after having read that book, I think Texas is making the right choice. I just hope they do things the right way, and not just make things worse.
May 19, 2008 at 10:09 am
Great Scott!, do you have reason to believe Carolyn’s version implicitly? Ever read the published fantasies of Hugh Nibley’s daughter?
The mere fact that there are so many monogamous couples at the Eldorado ranch, and mothers who bore their first children as 20- or 21-year-olds, tells me Carolyn Jessop’s tale is wildly exaggerated. Some of it may very well be true, but I don’t trust her without verification.
May 19, 2008 at 10:17 am
Scott #61,
My wife (oldest of 13 siblings) was raised FLDS and even her 2 oldest children remain in that faith. There are many wonderful FLDS people I know personally. I’m not saying Carolyn Jessop is a total lier, but if someone presents only one side, you know where their heart lies and that they have an agenda. I too know of negatives within the FLDS culture, but in all honesty, I know of more within mainstream American society. In the FLDS culture, men rule, and those who strive to live righteously are very good people and shouldn’t be lumped into one bad category with all the rest. There are, however, men who are unrighteous and commit crimes – these should indeed be weeded out and imprisoned (e.g., older men who marry underage girls). If you are LDS, how would you like your entire ward having all children taken away and judged based on those few adults who might be engaging in incent, rape, etc? Even if you get your children back after a year because you are found innocent, how would you feel about your children being unexpectedly taken from you and placed in an environment which you don’t like and which you feel is harmful? If you’re like me, you’d be outraged!
May 21, 2008 at 5:16 am
I am a 33yr. old woman living in S.W. Iowa. I am a survivor of long term sexual abuse, and an abusive marriage. I agree that before judgement is passed on each person involved, individual consideration is due. However, if even two 15yr. old children were “married” and beginning families on the ranch, that is reason enough to call each person’s parenting into question. I am truly sorry that some men and women are under the delusion that it is okay, even holy, to subject children to marital and familial responsibilities. My heart breaks for the children who suffer in unfamiliar situations along with the parents that ache for them; there is no justice in that. The “innocent” men and women who claim to have been wrongly accused are missing the point; “dressing up” the exploitation of young women under the guise of religion is sickening, sad, and dangerous. Their toleration and/or condoning of that particular behavior amongst their fellow devotees facilitated the detrimental practices within the ranch. Removing children from that type of situation should be a priority of Social Service workers. The Fourth Amendment is in the constitution to keep the goverment out of church affairs, and vice versa. It is part of what makes living in the U.S. great. I do believe that women and men beyond the legal age limit have the the right to live as a collective, if they so choose. When it is an integral part of their faith it becomes a matter of the Forth Amendment and should be defended with tenacity. The church can not supersede the rights of an individual either. That is the second part of the Fourth Amendment, and another reason we are lucky to be Americans. The church has no legal right to govern the destiny of any individual. They do not have the right to seal the fate of teen-aged girls, and that is precisely what happened.
May 29, 2008 at 11:33 am
Hope you anti-FLDS loonies are enjoying the news. Even a corrupt justice system is forced to recognize those children should not have been removed.
But you guys score some points too, I expect, when the same judge who approved what happened gets to rule on appeal. Nice system.
May 1, 2009 at 1:40 pm
[...] Rules of Engagement 1, Rules of Engagement 2, Remember Ruby Ridge, Over 400 [...]