As the Texas raid on the FLDS community in Eldorado moves into its second week, Texas has generated worldwide media attention with its questionable tactics to investigate a child and sexual abuse complaint of one anonymous victim, by forcibly removing over 400 children from their homes, their mothers and their fathers. Yes, Texas, the eyes of the entire world now are upon you, and what you are doing.
Update 4/12/08 4:14 p.m. Texas Rangers Meet with alleged suspect: No Arrest.
Barlow May Not Be Our Guy (Salt Lake Tribune)
There has been some excellent coverage of these events, which I have linked to in my various other posts on the subject; however, I will again recommend what I consider to be the best sources I have read. Please feel free to add any of your own in the comments:
The Polygamy Files (Brooke Adams, Salt Lake Tribune Reporter’s Blog on the Plural Life)
Grits For Breakfast (Blog focusing on the Texas criminal justice system)
Trent Nelson Photojournalist (A Photo Blog chronicling the FLDS Raid–incredible photos)
Go San Angelo (San Angelo (West Texas Newspaper)
In the Bloggernacle, there have also been some good posts, including these:
Information on Sectarian Polygamy (By J. Stapley over at BCC)
“Wells Known Facts” (By Ardis Parshall over at Times and Seasons)
FLDS, Texas and Double Standards (By Clark Goble over at M*)
Treating the Cultists Right (By Russell Arben Fox over at In Medias Res)
Paradox on Polygamy (By Paradox over at Enduring to the End)
Who do you believe deep in the heart of Texas (By Jon at Banner Sword and Shield)
And, while there has been some excellent coverage, by and large most of the media rates an “F” in coverage. Their sensationalism of the FLDS lifestyle, dress, polygamy their temple are just abhorrent. Not all of these people, yes, our sisters and brothers, are child abusers, or criminals of any type. I would venture to say most of them are not. Yet, their lifestyle, religious beliefs, and their sacred temple have been mocked, spat upon, and desecrated. And, for the most part, the world wide media has fueled the fire.
A brief roundup of the most recent news includes:
FLDS Raid Generates Sympathy (Salt Lake Tribune)
SAN ANGELO, Texas – The letters all begin the same way: “Dear friend.” So far, fundamentalist Mormons have gathered 400 to 500 of them, all written by children, and as many stuffed animals to send to children from a polygamous sect in west Texas now in state custody here.
The letters, along with diapers, notebooks, pencils and other items will be delivered next week to San Angelo and, organizers hope, into the hands of the women and children from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
“Right now, we are trying to respond with a humanitarian effort to help out the children and women whose lives have been shattered by this,” said Mary Batchelor, director for Principle Voices, a Salt Lake City-based education and advocacy organization for polygamous families. “We’re ready and willing to support them in many other ways.”
Also in the works is a public rally to show support for the sect and the broader fundamentalist community, said to number about 37,000 people in the Intermountain West.
Similar acts of compassion are under way across the nation as attention continues to focus on the unprecedented decision to remove all 416 children from the sect’s ranch near Eldorado, Texas, and take them into state custody.
This is very good to hear; however, I would also like to read on the Church’s Humanatarian website some official involvement by the Church for these unfortuante families. And, perhaps behind the scenes the Church is doing something along those lines. But, there is no public aknowledgment of that.
Apparently lawyers are also getting into the act:
In preparation for next week’s hearing, a roundup of Texas lawyers is under way. As many as 350 lawyers may be needed to represent the children, according to Tom Vick, a family practice lawyer helping to recruit attorneys. Already, 250 have volunteered. Who will pay them is unclear.
“The lawyers who have gone out there are going out there with the understanding they may never be paid a dime for it,” Vick said. In the vast state of Texas, hundreds of family law attorneys are in practice, though not all of them may have had experience in foster-care cases, he said.
On Friday, volunteer lawyers in San Angelo spent four hours going through training to act as attorneys ad litem, he said. “It’s heart-warming to see the outpouring of lawyers from all over this state who’ve said, ‘I’ll be there, you tell me when and where,’ ” said Vick, a member of the Access to Justice Commission, which advocates for low-income Texans.
If 51st District Judge Barbara Walther keeps the children in state custody, the lawyers will be tasked with figuring out what is in each child’s best interest. “It could be at odds with what the parents want,” he said. “It could be at odds with what CPS wants.”
Items Seized From Compound (Salt Lake Tribune)
SAN ANGELO, Texas – Authorities have seized hundreds of items that shed light on life inside the secretive FLDS compound here – everything from cell phones and computers to family trees and photo albums.
The 88 pages of documents released Friday by the district court for Tom Green County show police searching the YFZ Ranch focused on items that could reveal family relationships, such as birth and marriage certificates.
A 16-year-old girl sparked the raid with calls claiming she was being physically and sexually abused by her polygamous husband.
Several medical records released contain the first name and the first of two surnames used by the girl. However, the documents contain different birth dates, indicating there has been more than one girl by that name at the ranch.
One entry on the list of seized items was described as a ”cyanide poisoning document;” which referred to pages from a first aid manual but there was no cyanide on the ranch, said Tela Mange, a spokeswoman for the Department of Public Safety.
The descriptions of seized items are sometimes specific – a total of 87 cell phones, 47 computer towers, 17 laptop computers, and several flash drives and computer discs.
But most are general, such as: “11 photographs of men with children; photo of man and girl; father/child identifying information; two children’s fingerprint cards.”
Mothers plead to see children (Deseret News)
ELDORADO, Texas — Three mothers of 10 children taken from the Yearning For Zion Ranch by Texas authorities told the Deseret Morning News Thursday that child-welfare workers will not allow them to see or talk to their children.
“I am their biological mother. They will not let me in to see my children,” said Monica, a 34-year-old woman with five children ranging in age from 3 to 12 years old.
“They have my children and I don’t know why. I have asked to see them and have been told no. I am not going to sit here and let them have my children. I don’t know what, but I am going to do something. I am going to see my children.”
Monica is one of three women who spoke with the News in separate telephone interviews. All three women, who said they live at the YFZ Ranch raided last week by Texas officials, were emotional in sharing their personal details but did not want their full names published.
“My 11-year-old daughter was taken by CPS workers and questioned alone … about being with men and marriage. She doesn’t know anything about that (kind of thing),” said Monica, adding she received the information from a volunteer caseworker who is helping care for the FLDS children at one of the shelters. “The caretaker said my daughter is just sobbing her eyes out. I want the whole world to know what they are doing to our children!”
Indeed, world–take note at how compassionate the Texas CPS is. Keeping 11 year old girls away from their mothers and questioning them without parental consent about the most intimate details imaginable. Where is the outrage? Where is the decency of the Texas CPS? Is this Texas’ version of keeping these children safe, of cultivating their trust?
Mrs. Johnson, a 30-year-old mother of three children ages 7 and younger, also expressed frustration Thursday at not being allowed to see or talk to her children.
“My children were kidnapped for no reason. They are being held hostage,” she said. “I didn’t know where they were taken and when I finally found out, (the department of family and protective services) won’t let me see them. They won’t let them talk to me or let me see them.”
Mrs. Johnson said she fears her children are getting sick and are frightened at what has occurred. “They need their mother,” she said. “I am a good mother and I want to be with my children.”
A third woman, 40-year-old Mrs. Barlow, said she also hasn’t been able to see or speak to her children, who are 13 and 9 years old.
“My 9-year-old has allergies and he has to be very careful with what he eats and the level of his activities. His throat can swell up,” she said.
“I can’t believe this is happening. We tried to get some clothes together for our children, but they won’t let us see them. We need to get in there and take care of our children. We just don’t know what is going on.
“It’s outrageous this is happening in America.”
Outrageous and pathetic!
Barlow to meet with Texas Rangers today (Deseret News)
SAN ANGELO, Texas — The man accused of sexually and physically abusing a teenage girl is expected to meet with Texas Rangers today. He has denied all of the allegations.
Dale Barlow, who lives in Colorado City, Ariz., told the Deseret Morning News he’s agreed to meet with the officers who contacted his probation officer to make the arrangements.
“I was told they wanted to talk to me. It’s the first time I’ve heard from the Texas Rangers,” Barlow said Friday night.
He said he told Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran a week ago by telephone that he didn’t know the girl who called a domestic violence shelter hotline and said she was one of his wives and that he abused her. It was her phone calls that triggered Texas officials to raid the FLDS ranch and remove all 416 children.
Barlow said he didn’t know if the Rangers planned to arrest him. A warrant for his arrest was issued out of Texas more than a week ago.
This should be interesting. Barlow has denied knowing the young complaining victim. In fact, he recently told the Deseret News that he hasn’t even been in Texas since 1977:
“I do not know this girl that they keep asking about,” Dale Barlow told the Deseret Morning News Wednesday night.
“And I have not been to Texas since I was a young man back in 1977.”
A girl who said she was married to Barlow, indicated her last name was Barlow and lived at the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado, Texas, made several calls to a domestic violence crisis hotline March 29 and 30, according to search warrants and other court documents.
So, it will be interesting to see the response of the Texas Rangers, whether they will arrest him, just question him, or what.
Brooke Adams, in her latest blog entry describes a troubling pattern of Texas State Troopers apparently pulling over people in “routine traffic stops” who look like they are part of the FLDS community: Brooke notes, (from personal observation–not some double or triple hearsay affidavit):
I watched yesterday as state troopers — 10 of them, as best as I could tell — questioned an FLDS man and woman in a parking lot across from Fort Concho, where 416 children and 139 from the sect are being held.
As the man spoke with one plainsclothes officer, he gestured animatedly. He appeared to be in his late 20s or early 30s. The officer and the man shook hands for a long time afterwards.
The woman, who was questioned separately, looked to be the same age. She was calm. At one point the officers gave her a bottle of water.
The conversation lasted about 10 or 15 minutes. The couple then got back in their white extended passenger van and drove slowly out of the parking lot.
A trooper later told a few reporters who witnessed the interaction that the van had been pulled over in a traffic stop. Asked the nature of the violation, the trooper repeated it was a routine traffic stop.
All week, law officers guarding and patroling the fort have been pulling over vehicles driven by people who appear to be from the FLDS community.
The van had a Nevada plate. I don’t know why the pair came to Fort Concho.
Umm, I wonder if all these people who look like they belong to the FLDS community are all such horrible drivers, or perhaps they all have their tail lights out, warranting all these “routine traffic stops”. This is absurd.
Colorado City CPS phone call similar (Arizona Republic HT John f)
Arizona child-welfare officials are investigating a call from a 16-year-old girl alleging sexual abuse in the polygamist stronghold of Colorado City – a call similar to one in Texas that led officials to raid a related polygamist compound last week and take more than 400 children into state custody.
The calls came within a week of each other and were allegedly made by girls of the same age and involved similar allegations of abuse. In both cases, the calls were made to outside organizations and referred to child-welfare authorities. In both cases, officials were unable to immediately find the girls who made the calls.
It is unclear at this time whether the calls are related
This is very disturbing. But, the Arizona authorities’ response was actually much more measured, and Constitutionally sound:
But the Arizona case prompted a significantly different response than in Texas where police officers stormed the compound of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, took all the children into state custody and confiscated evidence from the temple.
In Arizona, no children have been taken into state custody – in part, officials say, because of differences in the communities and state laws.
“I don’t have the authority, and local officials don’t have the authority, to go in and, based on an unverified phone call, sweep up 400 children,” said Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard, who has made cracking down on abuses in Colorado City a hallmark of his administration. “If we found that girl (who made the allegations), we could take her into custody and perhaps her siblings in custody. There is no way in Arizona law we could reach any further.”
And, there is no way Texas should have gone any further. Arizona’s response was appropriate, while Texas has thrown the baby out with the bath water.
Judge says ranch children must stay in San Angelo (San Angelo Paper)
The women and children from the YFZ Ranch won’t be leaving San Angelo for a while.
State District Judge Barbara Walther ordered that all children removed from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound near Eldorado remain in shelters in San Angelo until after the hearing that begins Thursday in state District Court.
Also on Friday, authorities released the search warrant inventory of evidence gathered at the ranch, which ran to more than 80 pages.
Authorities have said the custody hearing is expected to last 14 days.
So, the saga will drag on at least another two weeks, probably more. By the time the hearings begin, perhaps The Texas Rangers may have located the complaining victim. Or, perhaps they will have located and arrested the correct “spiritual husband” to this individual.
Mental health experts enlisted to help with children (CNN)
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) — Texas officials have brought in mental health professionals and behavioral experts in an effort to ensure a sense of normalcy for the more than 400 children removed from a polygamous sect’s enclave, an agency spokeswoman said. Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints members are guarded at Fort Concho in Texas.
But for all their lives, the boys and girls of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have been told the outside world was hostile and immoral. Venturing beyond the brilliant white limestone walls of their compound would consign them to eternal damnation, their church leaders preached.
Now, if the state gets its way, hundreds of children could be put in foster homes, in what could be a wrenching cultural adjustment that may require intensive counseling.
Well, for the most part, the outside world is hostile and immoral. Why is that a bad thing to teach your children? I think it is good that mental health professionals are brought in to help counsel with these children; but, I’m not so certain that de-programing them as some would want, is such a good idea:
“What they are up against is having to deprogram an entire community,” said Margaret Cooke, who left the sect with seven of her eight children near the end of 1994. The children “are so naive and they have been sheltered to the point that they don’t even trust their own judgment.”
I don’t know who Margaret Cooke is, but given that she is a former FLDS community member, I’m not certain her own judgment is one anyone should trust. Let’s keep our eye on the ball here folks. Texas needs to be focusing on child and sexual abuse allegations. They should not be in the business of re-programing the minds of young children, because they happen to be members of an unpopular religious community.
“We want to keep their world as normal as possible,” Meisner said. “We also want to be certain that these children have gained a trust with us. We want these children to know that even if they may not have been safe in the past, they will be safe as long as they are with us.”
Well, that’s interesting. I think uprooting over 400 children based on one complaint of child abuse, is a very strange way to keep their world as normal as possible. It is just a bit arrogant to proclaim that if the children haven’t been safe in the past, they will be safe as long as they are in the custody and control of the State of Texas. Wow! There is very little Texas has done to demonstrate these children will be safer with them than they were in their own homes.
Texas . . . the eyes of the world are upon you . . .
April 12, 2008 at 9:32 am
Guy, I appreciate your posts on this topic. I know very little about the FLDS situation, but am learning from what you’ve written and linked to. I am very concerned about abuses of Constitutional rights and yet find it easy to overlook those abuses when they don’t happen to me or mine. You’ve done a great service in pointing out the legal issues in this case and giving me a lot to think over. Thanks!
April 12, 2008 at 10:13 am
Guy, thank you for your ongoing coverage of this story. The actions of state officials here so far seem bizarre and unjustified. It is amazing to me that anything could make me feel sympathetic toward the FLDS as a group, but these events have done it.
It is interesting to me that officials STILL cannot identify the original alleged victim. I would think it would take about 10 minutes to find a pregnant 16-year old with broken ribs. It also appears that the supposed perpetrator has never been to the compound. There is something very fishy about this whole thing.
April 12, 2008 at 10:48 am
Guy, keep up your good work. I suppose attention will start to drift to new scandals soon, but please keep collecting these reports and commenting on them.
April 12, 2008 at 11:06 am
Guy excellent coverage as usual. I think you are spot on with most of your observations.
April 12, 2008 at 11:16 am
Thanks Guy,
This is just a brief suggestion of why things happened the way they did. I am putting together a more detailed version and will link it to my web site soon. There are an increasing number of people coming forward stating that the FLDS scandals have influenced their support for Mitt Romney.
All the events with the FLDS in the last two years stinks of conspiracy. No one in law enforcement in Utah and Arizona can explain how Warren Jeffs was put on the FBI 10 Most Wanted list. Both Attorney Generals have tried to dodge stirring up a hornets nest like the 1953 Arizona raid on Shortcreek. It is like the Wizard of OZ. Someone pulled additional strings to add up to $100,000 of reward money for Jeffs capture in increments and timing to coincide with the presidential election. Jeffs was held for about 16 months in solitary confinement in Purgatory Jail before he could face his accuser. Arizona had 61 complaints like the Texas complaint and found 50 of them bogus with no victim to be found. The Texas sheriff fell for it on the third nibble, just in time to coincide with the rumor of Mitt Romney becoming a VP candidate. The Texas sheriff has a snitch advising him of what to do, but I would lay a big bet that she and all the other string pullers are connected to the Democratic National Committee. All this trouble is not about what you think it is. Yes, there are bad characters, but there is someone else pulling strings to achieve a different end. There are agitators at work and driving the agenda. There are too many unexplained events to be accidental.
April 12, 2008 at 1:10 pm
to say this is troubling is an understatement. As wrong as child marriage is, the Texas authorities need to narrow their scope to actual legal abuses. A wholesale dislocation of this community cannot be solved with a few (no doubt overworked) social workers and placements in foster homes. This is just out of the frying pan into the fire, and unless documentation and witness testimony is forthcoming, Texas will need to be held accountable.
April 12, 2008 at 1:15 pm
I have mixed feelings – on one level this sect is akin to the Amish – not “normal” by most standards, but who is to say what normal is. On an entirely differenf level – forced “marriages” at puberty, seeming forced sex/rape of teen girls, etc – this is a clan of rapists. So – my primary question is, why are the mothers, who it seems encouraged their teen daughters to maintain the lifestyle being allowed to remain with the children? Are they no accomplices in these crimes? Doesn’t there presence inhibit free flow of information from the children?
April 12, 2008 at 1:36 pm
As an outsider whose opinion is influenced by the media, I cannot help but be ambivalent about this situation. On the one hand, I see children being brainwashed by Jeffs and others so that there will always be a stable full of young girls who are forced to become prostitutes for sexually deviant old men, and young men who are forced to work for beliefs that have thrust upon them. Religion was used to keep African-American slaves from revolting, and it seems to be used in the same way by Jeffs and the members of his cohort. On the other hand, the idea of taking these children from their mothers and placing them in foster homes is abhorrent. There must be a kinder, saner way to ensure that these families are making INFORMED choices about how they want to lead their lives. Why can they not be counseled as families. Why can the women not be offered counseling and the option to be integrated into a less restrictive LDS way of life, but have this done with their children beside them? The state really must define its use of “abuse”–mental, physical, and emotional–before it decides to split up families. The state must also ensure that it does not further abuse an already fragile group of women and children.
April 12, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Several news articles I came across today:
Legality of polygamy raid in limbo
Texas polygamists may recant
Attorney for polygamist leader says tip may have been hoax
April 12, 2008 at 6:25 pm
Hey people, it is legal to marry a 15 yo right now in utah, so why the big deal?
And what is the difference between 14 yo and 15 yo anyway. one day??
And i can verify that none of the polyg girls are sluts and none have taken the LBT (low back tattoo). this is why they are being persecuted.
the local govrenment devils want all girls to be whores and sluts like their own wives and daughters. It makes them feel inferior when they think of the pure polyg girls but have to look at their own tattooed up whorish women. to be honest, i sympathize with them. those ugly faded tattoos combined with the stench of cigerette butts is a romance killer for sure.
April 12, 2008 at 7:07 pm
Did an anti-poly make the phone calls in the TX and AZ cases?
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/12/20080412flds-az.html
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0411cps0411.html
April 12, 2008 at 7:28 pm
“In my opinion, this is the largest endeavor we’ve ever been involved in in the state of Texas,” said Children’s Protective Services spokesman Marleigh Meisner, who said she was also involved in the 1993 siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080407/D8VTAD1G0.html
400+ Kids Taken From Polygamist Compound
April 12, 2008 at 7:37 pm
Mary,
Thanks for stopping by. You make a good point that often we overlook abuses unless and until they are directed to us.
E,
Yes, it is very troubling that the 16 year old mother has not yet been located. That combined with the meeting today with the Texas Rangers and the alleged perpetrator is just unbelievable.
Ardis,
Yes, attention will shift. The question that will remain, however, is when the attention shifts, will these children be reunited with their families and homes?
Jon, thanks for stopping by and for your post over at your blog.
Boise Leon,
Interesting thoughts. Thanks.
Tony,
Agreed.
Mike,
Normal is a very dangerous description. There may be evidence of some forced marriages within this community; however, those limited circumstances don’t justify what Texas has done. There is no credible evidence that every marriage in an FLDS community is forced.
Ambivalent,
I don’t know where you see all these things you list. Probably from the main stream media you admit gives you your information. Fortunately there is no credible evidence that has been published in the media that support many of the abuses you list. The only potential credible evidence of criminal activity is the affidavit listing the allegations of the 16 year old mother who as of yet has not been found.
Justin,
As always, thank you for your links. I especially liked Turley’s analysis.
Truth,
Please let’s try and be a bit more selective in word choice in future comments. You can make the same point without some of the words you choose.
Contributor,
It’s unclear yet, who made that call, which is part of the problem.
April 12, 2008 at 8:52 pm
The fact that the accused husband/abuser/rapist turns out never to have been in Texas during the time in question certainly raises questions. Now they’re saying Barlow may have been a “mistake” in identity. Imagine that—some 16 year old girl is supposed to be “mistaken” about the identity of her husband????
April 12, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Yeah, that really makes things look bad. If this turns out to be a crank call and no charges are made then heads ought roll.
April 12, 2008 at 10:00 pm
If NY authorities had committed an atrocity of this magnitude against a community of Hassidic Jews based on some anonymous call, the media would be all over them with anti-semitism, shades-of-Hitler charges, the families immediately re-united, and the “authorities” roundly condemned.
But these poor folks in Eldorado unfortunately don’t have such powerful media allies. In both cases the respective communities dress funny and don’t want their children to have anything to do with our morally corrupt and decadent “mainstream”, Britney Spears, American Idol, porn-worshipping society. But while that’s perfectly OK for the Jews, it is a societal sin of the first order for the poor FLDS!
We children do not belong to the government. We belong to our parents – and not just till we turn some arbitrarily defined age either, but for our entire lives.
The government admits that a child belongs to its mother at least up until it is born, to the extent that her right is recognized to kill that child through an abortion if she so desires. Parents need to re-assert and re-take their absolute rights.
“Statutory” rape: legalese for “rape” that is not rape. Real rape is when a man uses physical force to violate a woman. Statutory rape is when an age difference is involved that is arbitrarily set by some politicians. Human beings mature as vastly different rates. A particular emotionally, physically, and intellectually precocious 12 year old could be more ready for marriage than many 20 year olds.
Be honest now young ladies. What would you rather be, a 12 year old FLDS with multiple sister wives in a loving, permanent family with lots of children, or a typical Mainstream American 20 year old looking forward to a serially polygamous life of divorces and remarriages, likely to be spending many years with one or more children and no husband let alone sister wives to help raise them?
Our modern sick American society is in no position to act like we are morally superior to these gentle folks who are smart enough to try and protect their children from our truly decadent and perverted, anti-family, gratuitous-sex-pervaded, hypocritically self-righteous culture.
April 13, 2008 at 4:05 am
Richard Brodie Says: If NY authorities had committed an atrocity of this magnitude against a community of Hassidic Jews based on some anonymous call, the media would be all over them with anti-semitism, shades-of-Hitler charges, the families immediately re-united, and the “authorities” roundly condemned.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
I fully agree with darn near everything you say in this statement…hopefully folks reading it will stop and think out the realistic, here and now meaning behind your words and not jump the gun to conclusions that you advocate child rape and molestation.
April 13, 2008 at 9:12 am
This is indeed about freedom – about the freedom of little girls to grow up without being forced into sexual and physical slavery, either with physical or spiritual force. If you’re looking for conspiracies, look to the leadership of the FLDS. Theirs is a racketeering endeavor and should be prosecuted as such.
Polygamy was made illegal for good reason. The idea of “multiple sister wives in a loving, permanent family with lots of children” sounds wonderful (to some), but in the majority of cases, this just isn’t true. Young girls are forced into marriage with old men using force and spiritual intimidation. Current wives must “keep sweet” and accept younger and younger rivals into their homes without protest, despite the pain it causes them. Frequently, women and their children are forced into welfare because the fathers of (or will not) support scores of women and children. THIS is the true face of polygamy. Polygamist families were once called “Harems” in the middle east. FLDS clans are no different.
Polygamy is the biggest nest of modern-day slavery in the United States today. When slaves were freed in this country, it was controversial even in the slave quarters. Not everyone wanted their freedom and many had been conditioned to believe that the bible condoned their condition. But, despite the problems, how many blacks today would choose to return to the condition of slavery?
Women in polgymist cults are conditioned from birth to accept slave status. This is very simple to see for anyone who is not a polygamist apologist. In ALL (not one exception) polygamist cultures, bride age becomes younger and younger over time, while groom age rises over time. Study after study shows that young bride age correlates with higher poverty levels.
What we see in the FLDS is the young men driven from the cult for dubious reasons to reduce any competition for the old pedophiles who run the cult. We see a group of “elders” who share girls (and the fruits of owning them) among themselves – fathers giving daughters to their brothers and other relatives and cronies. We a succession of constantly pregnant young women and girls, a great many on welfare as single mothers, with the men profiting from ownership of these women through welfare fraud.
The children are victims. The men are the perpetrators. The older wives are accomplices, though their guilt is mitigated by having been coerced into the situation in the first place. But they ARE breakers of the law and abusers of their daughters.
This is just a very sad situation. There is no easy way to correct the evil of this slavery, just as there was no non-disruptive way to end slavery in the south. A generation or two of these folks are going to be disrupted. Had early generations of officials in states where polygamy is practice had done their jobs and stopped overlooking this entrenched form of abuse and slavery, the cults would have been addressed when they were smaller and less people would have been affected. But they allowed the evil to grow in the shadows. And now the problem has exploded.
I say Bravo! to the Texan authorities who have finally refused to allow this evil in their midst and taken steps to cleans their state of this insidious form of slavery.
There is no where in the US where a man and two or more women cannot live together, have childen and enjoy lives that THEY pay for. But they have no right to inflict a similar lifestyle (by force) on their underage children and the taxpayers.
April 13, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Brodie that was a great comparison.
It is all how the media plays it.
No atheist sinks so low as those “Christians” who call America’s inescapable landscape of carnival carnality “a Christian land.” America is a pimpmobile; we ought to at least leave the holy name of Jesus Christ out of it. If America is a Christian nation, then the strip joints of Las Vegas are Christian.
–Michael A. Hoffman II
April 13, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Well, I guess we will have to wait and see how many girls under the age of 16 are pregnant by men much older than themselves, and how many women in general decide to remain on “the outside”. There will be stories by some of these women that will reveal whether they made a choice to live as they did, or whether they were brainwashed from birth into believing that they had no choice. Also, if girls as young as 15 are forced into marriage and childbearing, that is (in my opinion) a violation of human rights. We do not have the right to “give” someone to someone else in North America.
I do hope that those who are now on the outside can be kept together as family units. Whether or not we “blame” the mothers for not protecting their young daughters, we all want what is best for the children. I do not believe that separating them from their mothers, especially after that have just entered a world that many of them did not know existed, is going to help them adjust. They need all possible security right now.
April 13, 2008 at 5:40 pm
Here is another article:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080413/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat
April 13, 2008 at 8:41 pm
This latest article in the Trib is also disturbing. It seems that the state-appointed attorneys for the children requested that the judge sign an order that all the evacuees cell phones be confiscated.
How can that be in the best interest of these women and children. The attorneys and the judge should all be disbarred.
This is just getting worse and worse.
April 13, 2008 at 10:47 pm
To answer our resident anti-polygamist apologist:
“This is indeed about freedom – about the freedom of little girls to grow up without being forced into sexual and physical slavery, either with physical or spiritual force.”
The most powerful and effective “spiritual force” putting people into slavery is the racket being run by the world’s academic, media, corporate, political, and banking elite. They have succeeded in turning us into a nation of sheep who believe we have been sexually “liberated,” when in reality we have been turned into slavish worshipers of a feminist and homosexual degenderization that has rendered our culture a cesspool of pornography, impermanent relationships, broken marriages, and unwanted children. I pity the poor FLDS kids who have been yanked away from a stable and wholesome environment and are about to be cast into the cultural sewer that is modern America.
“When slaves were freed in this country, it was controversial even in the slave quarters. Not everyone wanted their freedom and many had been conditioned to believe that the bible condoned their condition. But, despite the problems, how many blacks today would choose to return to the condition of slavery?”
If I were black I would choose a predictable and safe agrarian life on the plantation of a benevolent “master”, rather than being a welfare slave of the government in a modern American inner-city, where half the men are thrown into prison for victimless crimes, and marriage is discouraged by giving greater welfare benefits to unwed mothers.
“The idea of “multiple sister wives in a loving, permanent family with lots of children” sounds wonderful (to some), but in the majority of cases, this just isn’t true.”
References please to statistics or studies which justify the word “majority”.
“Current wives must “keep sweet” and accept younger and younger rivals into their homes without protest, despite the pain it causes them.”
Sounds to me like you’re projecting your own jealous tendencies. My understanding is that the acceptance of new wives is regarded as natural, and that a new wife is welcomed, just as a new child would be. Of course in the most extreme and unhealthy cases of exclusive possessiveness, some women actually do resent the attention given by a husband to a new baby!
“In ALL (not one exception) polygamist cultures, bride age becomes younger and younger over time, while groom age rises over time.”
This is an impossible universal. A lot of polygamist cultures have existed for very long periods of time, and so if the bride age (ALWAYS, without exception) becomes progressively younger and the groom age progressively older, then there would have to be examples of such cultures where the bride age has reached infancy and the groom age 120!
“What we see in the FLDS is the young men driven from the cult for dubious reasons to reduce any competition for the old pedophiles who run the cult. We see a group of “elders” who share girls (and the fruits of owning them) among themselves – fathers giving daughters to their brothers and other relatives and cronies.”
I believe their prophet is now in jail for arranging a marriage involving a teenage boy, not some “old crony.”
“The children are victims. The men are the perpetrators. The older wives are accomplices, though their guilt is mitigated by having been coerced into the situation in the first place. But they ARE breakers of the law and abusers of their daughters.”
The children are protected from becoming victimized by that rotten to the core and thoroughly trivial culture that is modern America. The men are their courageous protectors. The older wives are the loving mentors in their faith.
“There is no easy way to correct the evil of this slavery, just as there was no non-disruptive way to end slavery in the south. A generation or two of these folks are going to be disrupted.”
But Suzett, their was a non-disruptive way to end slavery. The United States was the only country in the world that resorted to a civil war that took the lives of over half a million of its young men. Lincoln himself proposed the benevolent plan of buying the “slaves” and sending them back to the homelands from which they were taken. So by “disruptive” I presume you mean a lot of bloodshed. Well, I’m sure that given the heavy handed tactics exhibited by these jack-booted Texas raiders, there probably will be genocidal Waco-like atrocities in these gentle people’s future.
April 14, 2008 at 3:54 am
Guy, have you seen Bored in Vernal’s post from Friday? It makes an interesting contribution by including a statement from a former FLDS member:
This is a very different story than that being told by the “informant” that the Texas CPS and Rangers have been relying on.
April 14, 2008 at 5:48 am
John F Thanks for posting that.
April 14, 2008 at 5:50 am
John,
I saw BIV’s earlier post, but not this one. Thanks for the tip . . . very powerful.
April 14, 2008 at 7:27 am
“Be honest now young ladies. What would you rather be, a 12 year old FLDS with multiple sister wives in a loving, permanent family with lots of children, or a typical Mainstream American 20 year old looking forward to a serially polygamous life of divorces and remarriages, likely to be spending many years with one or more children and no husband let alone sister wives to help raise them?”
Apples and oranges, because one situation involves choice, and the other involves brainwashing and being treated as a thing, a “gift”. What happens when a girl says NO to the marriage? What would happen if an entire group of girls got together and protested the gifting of human beings?
On the other hand, the physical examination of the children removed from the compound is very disturbing. These kids are being treated as objects by the state. The state should have had a better system in place BEFORE raiding that compound. I wonder whether they could have evicted the men for a period of time, left the women and children intact in their homes, and conducted their investigation right on the compound. Ripping these kids away from their homes and putting them into concentration camp circumstances is not the most humane way to carry on an investigation. I hope that a human rights representative is available to ensure that the rights of these women and children are not violated by the state.
If minors have been having sexual intercourse with men of legal age, the men of legal age need to be prosecuted as rapists, married or not. If the laws of incest have been broken, the perps need to be prosecuted as well. However, the needs and rights of the children should be the first consideration in EVERY instance, and investigators should be sensitive to these confused and frightened young ones. Stripping them of their rights, and treating them in assembly-line fashion, is not the appropriate way to show these children that the outside world respects them.
April 14, 2008 at 7:52 am
What happens when a girl says NO to the marriage?
Ambivalent: the former FLDS member who was corresponding with BiV provides some insight into your question. I posted her email in comment # 24 above.
April 14, 2008 at 8:12 am
By the way, did anyone notice the CNN coverage that clarified that a state worker admitted that the “cyanide” material discovered were a few pages ripped out of a medical reference book about how to treat cyanide poisoning?
Does it still sound scandalous and titillating when described like that?
April 14, 2008 at 5:56 pm
John, I saw that, but was hoping that there would be others who would weigh in on the question. I would appreciate hearing from more than just one person who has experience with the group. I am not saying that I suspect dishonesty, but without verification, we cannot just accept the post of an individual.
The more this goes on, the more disgusted I am becoming with the way the women and children are being treated. Regardless of what went on behind those walls, this is no way to members of the group. I cannot understand how the authorities can legally do this anyway. I would think they would have to have a separate order for each family. After all, you cannot just walk into a town and remove all mothers and children.
One official said that with the culture the kids come from, of course they are going to be frightened. Well, if you were to take any group of children, separate them from their mothers, herd them, and have strangers poking and prodding them and asking them questions they probably don’t understand, they would be as frightened as these children are. This is just shameful.
April 16, 2008 at 6:44 pm
I really appreciated many of the comments. I especially found #24 insightful.
Many things about this trouble me but aside from the incredible unjustified trauma inflicted on the innocent what bothers me is the hateful even bigoted language spewing out in some of the comments I read to several different blogs.
For the record I am a conservative Christian and we are often misunderstood and slandered too. I guess we better watch out maybe we are the next target of the Texas CPS. Right after the Amish and conservative Mennonites maybe?
May 21, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Slow to respond. I’m not going to very nice here, because polygamy is not a very nice practice.
The arguments on this page are coldly calculated to garner sympathy for what is, at its core, unpardonable. These men are lining excuses up in advance for the underage marriages and pregnancies that are being, and will continue to be, uncovered.
I never said the men in this sect aren’t dedicated to their way of life – only that this way of life is based in slavery and pedophilia and protects men who use their religion to justify having access to sex with underage girls and ownership of multiple women. It is systematic because the men are taught not only are these base behaviors OK, but they are wonderfully “Godly.”
In regards to post #24, it sounds oh so sincere and good hearted. In the first place, I am suspicious it is simply contrived – either not real, or simply rationalization. But let’s assume it is a true letter from a previous male cult member, from his point of view.
Its language is classic “blame the victim” talk. You see, girls under 15 WANT to marry men old enough to be grandpa and perhaps be his 7th or whatever wife. They just BEG their fathers for it. (And this, of course, explains the girls known as *poofers* who disappear literally within days, married to someone in a distant compound, far from their much-vaunted families? Of course. I’m sure they implore their fathers for this.)
And, the explanation (again, to cover the pregnancies and marriages)for the girls under 15 who were married: “it was always the result of her father putting a lot of pressure on Rulon or Warren to do something about their daughter.” Translated: the girl was beginning to ask questions and rebel against the future the “elders” had in store for her. Dad wanted her married off quick before she could make trouble. That is why groups such as the fundamentalist Islamics allow girls to be married off as young as 9. Get ‘em when they are too young and culturally powerless so they can’t make waves. As for the girls being allowed to say “No,” to marriage with the person selected by the “prophet,” this is not the story being told by the many women who have escaped the FLDS.
Poor Rulon and Warren. The two most powerful men in the cult, God’s anointed and unquestionable leaders had to bow to the wishes of barely pubescent girls and marry them off to old codgers with other wives. “Aw, gee, folks. Our hands were tied, here. Those little girls insisted. After all, those little girls…they were asking for it.” Ahem. When my 14-year old sister wanted to get married, I believe OUR father said, “Hell No!” He was no prophet, but that was the end of that.
I not surprised that some fathers are protective of their daughters, even weeping when they leave. A polygamous man with any intelligence and even a shred of decency knows what he is sending his daughter into when he marries her off to a guy three times her age to be his, say, 7th, 8th or whatever wife. Like I said, these guys are human beings, after all, but, well, they’ve got their several wives (or in at least one case, 21 wives), so its only fair they give daughters back into the system. “Boo, hoo, honey, so sorry to see you go be the 9th wife of uncle (insert one of a half dozen last names here). Don’t worry. Be happy. See ya!”
How glib and self-serving to say that all those who left the cult are quietly happy except for the 5% who are bitter and noisy. Those 5% take tremendous risks in speaking out. Some of those who are are quiet have reported being afraid of and threatened with retaliation. This is what is now going on against the the woman who testified against Warren Jeffs. Her “husband”, who didn’t want custody of the children when she left, is now, backed by an enormous FLDS bankroll, trying to take them from her.
You can dress this up all you want with sad stories about mothers losing their children. But generational polygamy is a perverse and twisted system that is unjust. You say these women *like* being one of many plural wives. Well, what do you expect a woman to say when the quality of her survival as well as that of her children depends completely upon keeping her “husband” happy and doing as she is orderd? These women are barely educated, frequently young with many children, brainwashed to accept second-class status (she will burn in everlasting hell unless he takes her to heaven with him because doctrine says she can’t get in by herself), and they have no marketable skills. A 22-year girl in this situation, with 4 or 5 kids can’t exactly just say, “I’m tired of being wife number 18, getting in the car (which she frequently doesn’t have access to) with her kids and driving off. She is economically, emotionally, religiously and frequently physically enslaved.
So when Texas says, “This is wrong and this chain has got to be broken,” and removes the kids from such *religious freedom,” the woman gets on TV, says “I like this lifestyle, we’re happy, please give me back my kids.” This is, indeed, heartbreaking. She has been doubly victimized. The kids are all she has, but still that doesn’t give her the right to enslave them in turn.
Meanwhile grandpa daddy is hiding out and keeping his mouth closed. How low.
Do the math. Men and women are born in roughly equal numbers (yes, there are slightly more women born.) For every old man who has two wives, not quite one young men gets no family. For every old goat who has, say 4 wives, 3 young men get to be alone. And for each man who craves and gets an even larger collection, he is shutting out that many more young men from community life. From a societal perspective this is lunacy.
There is a reason the FLDS and most other polygamous groups are so secretive – they are hiding abuse and law-breaking and don’t want anyone to see because then “the jig is up.” If they want their *lifestyle* to be accepted, they need to come out into the open with their practices, and let their women and children interact with free people. Polygamy practices can’t survive such sunshine.
Yes, there are polygamous groups that don’t use force and I believe it when they say they are happy with their lifestyles, but just because a few people make it work for them (they say), that doesn’t mean it should be legal, because it is much more likely to be imposed upon the many for whom it is unjust.
Your Taliban-inspired rants about the whole of the US culture being perverted and all its women tainted is simply wrong and shows your true colors.
May 21, 2008 at 4:56 pm
SuZett, I sure hope you’re feeling better after having rid yourself of all that rot. Next time try using a laxative before you get quite so overfilled with filth. And dump it somewhere else.
May 21, 2008 at 5:54 pm
To Daniel
Hateful comments? Generational polygamy is often slavery and, frequently, mixed with pedophilia. There is really no nice way to point out the obvious, if the obvious points to evil. Bigotry? I’ve seen no one putting down any particular ethnic group (except for the guy who said that blacks would prefer to be slaves to the freedom of troubled inner cities and long as they had a stable, kindly master. (How weird is that belief and has he actually checked in with any blacks to see if they’d really care to return to slavery under a make-believe benign master? I believe this speaks much about the polygamist mind-set.)
I do lash against so-called religious beliefs that are quite convenient in justifying the base desires of the perpetrators, excuse me, adherents, but this is not bigotry. It is, perhaps, religious intolerance and I cop to that when it comes to polygamy. I certainly am intolerant of systems of enslavement, religious or otherwise. People used to believe they had to sacrifice a percentage of their children to one or another God to ensure the sun rose every morning? Others believed they had to give up their girls to be temple prostitutes servicing any comer for a time. Should we allow these sorts of practices under the guise of religious freedom? “But that’s my belief!” adherents might whine, “My heritage!” Would we be swayed and say, “Ah well, it’s their kids, they have the right?” No, society has and must maintain a balance between personal freedom and the whims of religious excess.
There is simply not room or time to provide detailed citations for my allegations, but there are numerous books that DO provide the proof. Scores of them. Read “Under the Banner of Heaven” by John Krakaur, as a start. If you do an Amazon search on “Polygamy” you will find book after book of first-hand testimony from women who have escaped polygamy or lived under its oppressive mantle, as well as in-depth research on the abuses and negative social impact inherent in modern-day polygamy. (Those bitter few again?) With the exception of a very few pro-polygamy tomes (having only the author or other polygamist write sterling reviews), they mostly appear to be male-authored versions of “God says I get to own all the women I want and its good for the women! So there!”
The data is out there. The abuse is real – both to individuals and to communities. Is it really hateful of me to point these things out?
I’m no particular fan of the fundamentalist Christian point of view, really, but I don’t see them breaking the law by coercing their underage daughters into polygamous marriages or abusing their children in the ways documented as occurring the polygamist cults. They don’t isolate their women and children and teach them to hide when others walk by. The don’t brainwash the women into believing they can’t get into heaven unless their husband lets them in. They don’t dump their excess young males onto the social services of the surrounding communities before they can become competition for the young women, so that older men can collect ever more women in their harems. In the main, they don’t perpetrate welfare fraud by putting excess women and children on the dole because they have too many to support. Every fundamentalist Christian I’ve ever met can tell you the names and ages of ALL his children because he doesn’t have scores of them. In fact, fundies are generally very responsible and keen on providing financially, emotionally and spiritually for their families. They can usually do so because they only have one wife and one set of kids.
So, fundamentalist Christians are OK by me and pretty much most of the country to practice their way of life. Live and let live. They’re crazy to me, but a child has the option of looking around and making other choices for themselves. The same goes for the Amish and Mennonites, who all tend to be basically good people. Abuse the kids or break the law, though, then society WILL come after you. As it should.
May 21, 2008 at 5:58 pm
AEP
Any real arguments here or just, “you’re full of rot?. A scoundrel’s answer for sure…..
And yeah, I feel better. I always do when I speak truth to oppression…..
May 21, 2008 at 6:21 pm
Anyone who cites to Krakauer is too ignorant to take seriously.
My arguments — valid and informed — have been made previously here at M&A, in numerous threads, and your rot doesn’t merit their repetition.
May 21, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Read “Under the Banner of Heaven” by John Krakaur, as a start.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SuZett,
I don’t know what you do for a living, but if it isn’t stand-up comedy, you have missed your calling in life.
May 22, 2008 at 11:40 am
Just posted this on the other thread.
Check out the appellate court decision:
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9347022