Media outlets are reporting the Texas judge hearing the case has ruled all 416 children must remain in State custody. Frankly I am dumbfounded.
The Salt Lake Tribune reports:
SAN ANGELO, Texas – A judge has ruled all 416 FLDS children will remain in state custody, and that the state has met its burden of proof to justify the ruling in every way.
The judge told the parents they may have restrictions or lose permanent custody of their children if they don’t agree to provide a safe environment for them. She also ordered maternity and paternity testing of both mothers and fathers.
Many parents dropped their heads in sadness and walked out, one by one, upon hearing the verdict. Richard, an FLDS father of seven children in state custody who declined to provide his last name, said :”It’s just a continuation of a bad thing.”
There was conflicting testimony in the case about whether some underage girls were pregnant or had given birth. For those young girls, assuming they are underage–I can see how the judge might reach that ruling; however, there was no evidence to support such a sweeping ruling for all 416 children to remain in state custody.
Attorneys visibly shaken by the ruling:
An attorney representing two children, ages 8 and 9, left the city hall auditorium in tears. Deborah Cascino said she had mixed feelings about the judge’s order.
“I just feel sorry for the parents, and I feel sorry for the children,” said Cascino, who has been a family lawyer for four years and said she knows parents always want their children back.
Whether the judge made the right ruling, she said, only time will tell.
Interesting reaction from one of the actual litigators.
SAN ANGELO, Texas – A Texas judge on Friday ordered that all 416 children taken from a polygamist compound in West Texas remain in state custody and undergo DNA testing, NBC News reported.
In testimony Friday, two mothers admitted that they knew of underage marriages and births at the ranch, which authorities raided two weeks ago.
Lucille Nielson said she was nearly 20 when she got married but knows of roughly a dozen girls younger than 18 who were married at the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado. Another mother admitted that her sisters had children old enough to demonstrate they were married before age 18
Nothing yet from the Deseret News, though I expect something shortly. CNN has yet to post something on their website as well. There are media reports of the testimony elicited today, which I will post as soon as I can; however, nothing I saw, even the testimony that there were some underage or young marriages, in my mind justifies Texas holding all 416 children. Thank heavens for appellate review.
CNN is going live with Larry King reporting on the ruling from Texas. This ought to be another biased program mocking and slamming the FLDS community.
Part of the ruling requires DNA paternity and maternity testing. This will certainly connect the dots of the family relationships.
The Deseret News now reports:
SAN ANGELO, Texas — A Texas judge ruled Friday evening that all of the 416 children taken from the YFZ Ranch will remain in temporary state custody.
The ruling followed a marathon two-day hearing that included hundreds of lawyers.
During earlier testimony Friday, a 29-year-old polygamist mother testified today that she would be willing to do anything the court required if she could regain custody of her 7-year-old daughter.
Merilyn Jeffs told the court she would be willing to leave the YFZ Ranch and is capable of supporting herself, if that is what it takes to be reunited with Marva. Under questioning by her attorney, Merilyn Jeffs, who was born in Utah, said she would never allow her daughter to be married until she reached the age of 18.
For herself, she did not marry until age 20 and was “absolutely not” coerced into the union.
Under cross-examination by the state’s attorney, Merilyn Jeffs’ answers became measured and slow, and were given with some reluctance. Although she testified that she has a 19-year-old sister who is married, she said she didn’t know when the marriage took place.
When the attorney asked if she knew how her sister was married, she replied, “After it’s done, they come and we congratulate them.”
Clearly the mothers were making the case by throwing themselves at the court’s mercy, agreeing to do anything at all, including moving away from the FLDS ranch to keep their children. That is incredibly powerful testimony coming from a group that has been so cohesive and closed to the outside world.
Warren Jeffs himself may be called to testify, with the judge from the bench indicating she would have him served with papers:
During earlier testimony today, Susan Richardson, an attorney representing one of the children seized in the raid, said FLDS leader Warren Jeffs may be called to testify because he fathered her client.
Richardson today began questioning religion expert Robert Walsh about the personal and religious views of Jeffs when it comes to unions of underage girls to older men.
The attorney asked if Jeffs’ personal practices of uniting young girls with adult men differed from the traditional habits of the Fundamentalist LDS Church.
When another defense attorney objected to the relevancy, saying Jeffs was in prison, Richardson countered, saying it was relevant because “he is the father of a child I represent.”
The judge then interjected, asking if that meant that Jeffs needed to be served with court papers because it may mean he could be a party to the case. Richardson said yes.
Carolyn Jessop, self anointed FLDS critic interview by Larry King says she is relieved. She also admits that many innocent mothers will suffer as a result of this ruling.
Susan Hays, an attorney for some children said on Larry King she was not really surprised at the ruling, even though I am. She pointed out, however, this is only step two in a long process. I’ve seen Ms. Hays before in interviews and she is quite articulate and knowledgable. She points out how hard this will be on the siblings and that she is quite concerned with them, and how the ruling might affect them. I share that concern.
More from the Deseret News article on testimony from the state’s expert psychologist:
Also on Friday, a leading child trauma psychologist for Texas testified that the situation with 416 FLDS children who have been taken into state custody is a “lose-lose situation.”
Bruce Perry, senior fellow at the Child Trauma Academy, an organization that works in cooperation with a multitude of state government agencies to counsel traumatized children, was one of the state’s chief witnesses today in the custody hearing for the children seized during a raid on the Fundamentalist LDS ranch.
Perry said that if the children who were on the YFZ Ranch were kept in custody there would have to be “exceptional and innovative programmic elements in place.”
Perry also said the FLDS children should remain in custody because they are either victims of sexual assault, potential victims of sexual assault or potential perpetrators.
But under cross-examination, Perry conceded that there is no one-size-fits-all solution. In fact, Perry admitted that “the traditional foster care system would be destructive to these kids.”
This was powerful testimony, from the state’s expert, that I think supported the parents, frankly. He concedes that keeping these children in custody will require exceptional and innovative programs on the part of Texas. Frankly, from how Texas has handled this case thus far, I am not hopeful that will occur. The other bit of testimony from him that cut against the state was his admission that continued traditional foster care will be destructive to these children. He all but admitted these kids are going to lose by staying with Texas.
Finishing the state’s expert’s testmony:
When asked which option would be best for the children — a return to the ranch, placement in the foster system or remaining in the coliseum where they are now — he said none were acceptable.
He said to return to the ranch would be detrimental, even for the young boys because it is a “special place, it reinforces their beliefs.”
While admitting that the young boys are not at immediate risk for physical abuse he said they would be subject to emotional and psychological harm
Overall, he said, the least vulnerable of the group are the young babies.
Incredible testimony that neither placement in foster care, remaining in the coliseum of returning to their homes would be good for these children. What? We should just beam them up Scottie? How is in not better for those children not at risk for unlawful sexual behavior, i.e. all males and all females under 11 or 12, to be returned to loving homes, mothers and fathers?
CNN now has a report on their website as well:
SAN ANGELO, Texas (CNN) — Hundreds of children who were taken from a polygamist ranch by Texas child welfare authorities will remain in state custody, a judge ruled Friday night.
Judge Barbara Walther also ordered court DNA testing for all 416 children who lived at the YFZ (Yearning For Zion) Ranch in Eldorado to determine their biological parents.
The compound is run by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — a Mormon offshoot that practices polygamy.
Walther made her ruling after two days of testimony at a hearing to determine whether the children were properly removed by child welfare authorities.
Walther said she found sufficient evidence for Texas Child Protective Services to keep custody of the children.
“We’re a little disappointed in what the process turned out to be,” said Cody Towns, a Dallas, Texas, attorney representing some of the children, who said he planned to appeal the ruling.
I am pleased to see at least one attorney talking about an appeal. I trust and hope there will be more as more media coverage emerges.
The defense LDS/Mormon expert called to rebut some of the state’s case testified that the underage marraige is uncommon amongst the FLDS. He also address the “sex” bed in the temple:
Earlier in the day, a defense witness testified that it is uncommon for a polygamist sect to force girls as young as 13 into marriage, as the state alleged.
Religious scholar John Walsh also addressed a particularly damning piece of evidence: At least one bed found inside a temple that was allegedly used to consummate such marriages immediately after the ceremony.
“Historically, the only use of a bed in a temple is for temple worship itself,” said Walsh, who said he has studied the FLDS practices for 18 years. “The worship lasts a couple of hours, so all the temples will have a place where someone can lie down.”
But, he said, “To my knowledge, there has never been any sexual activity in a Mormon temple.”
Oh well, there goes that piece of fiction shouted from the housetops by the medial for days and days as though it were a proven conclusive fact that the LDS had marriage sexual consummation rights right in the temple. Of course it was nonsense when it was first reported, but true to form much of the media won’t let the facts stand in the way of their sensational reporting.
The New York Times is just now reporting the AP version of the story:
Filed at 9:33 p.m. ET
SAN ANGELO, Texas (AP) — The more than 400 children taken from a ranch run by a polygamous sect will stay in state custody and be subject to genetic testing to sort out family relationships that have confounded welfare authorities, a judge ruled Friday.
State District Judge Barbara Walther heard 21 hours of testimony over two days before ruling that the children would be kept in custody while the state continues to investigate allegations of abuse stemming from the teachings of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
”This is but the beginning,” Walther said. Individual hearings will be set for the children over the next several weeks.
This is a minor bright spot here. As I am unfamiliar with Texas civil procedure in child custody hearings, I don’ t know what all the steps are in the process, and in what order the occur. The Family Law statutes do contemplate a hearing for each child, and it is good to read reports that will eventually happen. I think that is going to be the stage at which some of these children will be coming back home to their families.
The San Angelo paper also reports some interesting details on the judge’s ruling:
Judge Barbara Walther at about 7:30 p.m. today issued a decision that all 416 children removed from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints compound near Eldorado will remain in state custody for the time being.
Marleigh Meisner of Texas Child Protective Services said the children will be placed in foster homes pending hearings, which the judge said will take place before June 5.
Walther wound up two long days of testimony with the ruling. She ordered maternity and paternity testing for each child. On Monday, a mobile lab at the fairgrounds will being taking DNA samples of all the children and mothers there.
Tim Edwards, a San Angelo attorney who represented some of the mothers, said he was disappointed with the decision.
“This was a very difficult situation for everyone,” he said.
So, the children will be placed in foster homes–sad indeed–but perhaps better than a large coliseum–I don’t know. I worry about them splitting up the siblings. I also worry about their exposure to such a different way of life, one in many ways is devoid of many of the morals and religious teachings this children have been taught all their lives.
It is again good to read further, and I assume, individual hearings will be taking place, prior to June 5.
Here’s another brief summary of the judge’s final comments from the bench, again from the San Angelo paper:
7:29 p.m. — Court reconvenes.
The judge thanks all members of the bar for their work and cooperation.
She announces her decision that the children should not return to the ranch.
She says this is the beginning. Hearings will begin June 5, but they will not be en mass. The court orders maternity and paternity testing for each child.
On Monday, a mobile lab at the fairgrounds will test the DNA of all the children and mothers there.
Parents are entitled to an attorney, whether or not they can afford it, she notes.
For now, it’s over.
Well, it’s over for those who can go home tonight to their loved ones, their families, their children, or their parents as the case may be. But, it’s far from over for those innocent mothers who have done nothing wrong other than have an unpopular religious belief. It’s also far from over for those innocent boys and girls who have literally been ripped from the only people they have ever loved, in a most abusive and caustic manner.
What’s good about this? Well, again, a sliver of light is the fact all parents will be entitled to legal counsel. All children will be entitled to individual hearings. What, however, can be done in the interim. While, I’m certain even West Texas allows appellate review, I’m not certain how successful it might be. We shall see.
The Los Angeles Times reports:
By Jenny Jarvie and DeeDee Correll, Los Angeles Times Staff Writers
6:45 PM PDT, April 18, 2008
SAN ANGELO, TEXAS — A judge ruled this evening that 416 children seized by authorities during a raid on a polygamous sect’s compound are at risk of sexual abuse if they stay with the group and must be placed into foster care.
Texas District Judge Barbara L. Walther’s ruling came after a chaotic, two-day hearing that featured several hundred lawyers and two buildings filled with witnesses, reporters and members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a sect that broke away from the Mormon Church in the 1930s. Its members believe in divinely inspired, underage polygamous marriage.
I need to take a break and let some of this sink in. I suppose another good thing about all of this is that perhaps, just perhaps, the FLDS will now re-consider at least the underage aspect of marriage in their lifestyle. This just cannot be worth that part of how ever many people actually practice that. If we are to believe what the FLDS claim, and their court expert, it is a rare occassion that the underage marriages occurr. But, if they occur at all, it is too often. I can see no justification to continue such a practice, particularly given the extremely high price it has exacted from the entire community, mothers, fathers and children all.
Other coverage of note:
Conglomerate (Legal Blog)
Texas ACLU (They are monitoring the situation–I hope they begin to do more than monitor)
The Polygamy Files (Brooke Adams’ blog entry on the ruling–she was there–good insights)
Appendix Red State (A blogger and commentor who has followed the story, with some great links)
The Local Crank (Texas Family Lawyer)
April 18, 2008 at 5:49 pm
Well, I’ve nailed my flag to the mast.
Trying to get some attention in the Conservative-Libertarian political realm.
http://www.redstate.com/blogs/cicero/2008/apr/18/texas_pouring_piss_from_a_boot
Feel free to stop by and Recommend my blog so that maybe we can get people there to pay attention to it.
April 18, 2008 at 5:58 pm
I think she had no choice, considering they don’t even know for sure who the mothers and fathers are for most of these children. Once that’s established and the ages of the pregnant girls and girls who have already had children can be determined with certainty, then maybe they can narrow down who is and isn’t at risk and let the others go home. I don’t see that her ruling was harsh, just cautious, which it should be if children are involved.
April 18, 2008 at 6:09 pm
That is so sad.
April 18, 2008 at 6:12 pm
This means that CPS can keep the children for up to a year, during which time CPS is making the case that will be put up in an actual trial.
April 18, 2008 at 6:14 pm
I’m amazed based upon the testimony.
April 18, 2008 at 6:17 pm
Isn’t there anything they can file right away as an attempt to stop it?
April 18, 2008 at 6:26 pm
It will also be interesting when the DNA results come out. From an interview with Winston Blackmore (head of the FLDS sect in Bountiful BC) who was on Larry King, he mentioned that Warren Jeffs had re-assigned wives and children of up to 200 men to others he felt more worthy. He noted that one of the women who gave interviews at the Ranch was one of the ones re-assigned (away from Warren’s own brother). Maybe the biological fathers will get access to their children again out of this. Looks like lots to come from this. Hopefully more good than sad. While I’m relieved for the most part, I do hope it is sorted out quickly and the innocent parties are reunited.
April 18, 2008 at 6:30 pm
Time to march on the capital. This is a travesty.
April 18, 2008 at 6:33 pm
It’s my opinion that Texas is doing everything it can to crush the FLDS. The average comment I have seen in various blogs about this story is roughly: “We Texans won’t stand to have these kinds of people in our midst”.
I’m not LDS, but I am beginning to see what early LDS members had to face before settling Utah. It’s a case of history repeating itself.
April 18, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Wow.
April 18, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Jo I will bring the snacks! It’s the weekend we can hop in the car.
What about the issue of them not getting individual hearings?
Why do they want DNA if they took the case as one household, is it just to get them for bigamy?
Gene it’s true, not only that but they can pat themselves on the back for “helping” and collect the cash from the state/fed gov & c/s from the parents.
April 18, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Why do they keep bringing up girls marrying before they’re 18, when state law in Texas says the marriage age (with parental consent) is 16? So long as they’re over 16, there’s no legal case.
I think foster care is going to be a disaster. It’ll be a disaster for the usual reasons, such as over-stretched resources and unqualified foster parents. It’ll also be a disaster because the people of Texas clearly have a desire to “save” these children from their religion. Prove to me that every single child will end up in a helpful, NEUTRAL home and will not in fact be told they’re going to hell by their nice foster family.
April 18, 2008 at 7:54 pm
[...] A good (rather long) summary of the kids situation is here. [...]
April 18, 2008 at 7:59 pm
Individual cases start in June. The state hasn’t taken the children permanently away. I’m not saying this is a good thing, but better than the alternatives suggested above. Why is DNA testing such a bad thing here? At least it will determine who the parents of the children are so that the custody and allegations of abuse can be decided on an individual family basis. And, perhaps this will be enough to ensure that the practice of under age girls being given in marriage (actual or “spriritual”) will end. I wasn’t in a polygamus sect, but did spend many years in a closed type fundamentalist religion wearing long skirts and uncut hair with that wonderful “poof wave” that they have. (I actually thought it was more attractive that way than pulled straight back). I didn’t have a uni-brow though -that would have sent me packing sooner I’m sure. Anyhow, I digress. This is a serious issue. My point is that this is about child abuse not persecuting funny dressers. There are many religious groups (the one I came from for one) that dress oddly etc but don’t get their children taken away as there is not the systemic practice of child abuse (rape of young girls) as ordered by the religious authorities. The Amish for example dress old fashioned but are not suspected of child abuse. I’m sure the judge was wise enough to concentrate on the potential abuse and not attempting to squash the FLDS due tho their religion.
April 18, 2008 at 8:09 pm
If kids were taken away for abuse that may or may not ever happen, all kids would be in state custody. This seems like a lot of guilt by association with the kids the sad victims. I too am glad parents are planning to appeal. Why were they ALL taken anyway rather a case by case, family by family basis? How can experts say what definitively happened if they weren’t there?
During that time who knows how much harm will be done to these kids by immersing them in a lifestyle they have been taught is evil and removing them from their morals and support network? Regular foster kids have a grasp of how to function in the modern world. These kids don’t. I would submit that the state is committing abuse by forcing them to live in a lifestyle they are totally unprepared for.
This is a sad and complicated situation.
April 18, 2008 at 8:17 pm
That female Judge and DCFS spokeshag Marleigh Meisner look like [edited]. I’ll bet the judge has at least four tattoos. [edited]
Only [edited] would want those kids taken from their wonderful families.[edited]
The patriots who are standing up for these kids and the constitution need to get together and form an organization to resist this and other atrocities by the government and their henchmen.
Further, all baptist churchs should be picketed on sunday to protest the invovlement of the el dorado baptist church in assisting the pigs, providing buses and acting as collaborators. this is a huge problem.
April 18, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Please keep gathering your reports, Guy, even though most of the rest of the world will let this fade away until the next sensationalizing-able bit of story occurs.
While most are repeating what we’ve said over and over for the last couple of weeks, my outrage is burning out — it shouldn’t, but what more can I say that isn’t a tiresome repeat? I’m grateful that you are looking for potential bright spots. I hope the mothers’ attorneys can offer them something hopeful to hang onto.
April 18, 2008 at 9:02 pm
And thanks for editing language and other unacceptable comments. It doesn’t help either the situation or my mood to have to wade through some fool’s drek.
April 18, 2008 at 9:46 pm
“I think she had no choice, considering they don’t even know for sure who the mothers and fathers are for most of these children.”
Don’t know, or don’t want to know? I have seen three acounts (two are possibly the same person, I suppose) of women who have presented driver’s licenses, birth certificates, and identification and CPS says they might be lying.
One poor older woman, is divorced and only moved there with her teenaged son last summer. She wasn’t even at the ranch during the raid, she was sitting by a sick daughter’s side at a hospital in Lubbock. She says she has all manner of I.D. which she has presented and can move off the ranch immediately- but it’s no go.
April 18, 2008 at 10:07 pm
Like Ardis, I’m feeling a bit demoralized here. Earlier reports had suggested that the decision would not come until tomorrow, so this has come as an early, and unpleasant, surprise.
Guy, do they publish judicial decisions in these types of cases? Or do we just have to rely on media summaries of what the judge said? I’d like to see her explain how the testimony presented today met the burden of proof.
April 18, 2008 at 10:20 pm
I’m not a lawyer, but it doesn’t seem to me like Texas has a legal leg to stand on. Hopefully some higher courts will be more sane. I still have faith that our country has some respect for civil rights and the rule of law.
I have to say that of the little bit of cable news coverage I’ve seen on this, almost all of it has been garbage. I can’t tell you how disgusting Nancy Grace is, but that’s nothing new for her. I have to say, though, that right now On the Record with Greta van Sustern is on and she’s taking a really balanced view of things. So props to one mainstream media person with a brain.
April 18, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Tom, agreed. Strangely enough, Fox News has, at least in the segments that I’ve seen, for once lived up to their slogan of being “fair and balanced.” CNN on the other hand, has been atrocious, especially Nancy Grace.
April 19, 2008 at 12:11 am
Just curious what the tatoo issue is all about. I’m new to this website and it’s the second time that tatoos are mentioned when someone is making vile comments about someone they don’t care for (here the judge). …”I’ll bet she has 4 tatoos..”
What’s with that anyway? Is that like “I bet she has devil horns …” Really doesn’t make the rest of your comments sound very intelligent.
The issue was and is child abuse (statutory rape primarily here). Once they can determine who belongs to who (and with all the deception by changing names, not giving names etc etc, I can understand why the judge would want to wait for DNA testing than to take the word now from those coming forward). Hopefully, the judge can quickly get the un-abused children back with their families. While I don’t agree with the religion, as long as they stop marrying off under age girls, I would presume them to be better off with their families than in foster care. I am curious to know how many of those children have fathers that were exiled from the sect. Apparently Warren Jeffs re-assigned many wives and children to more worthy men just before they moved to the compound. This is coming from a leader of the Canadian FLDS sect. He identified one of the women that was interviewed on Larry King as one of those that had been re-assigned. Maybe these fathers will gain access to their children that was taken away from them not by the state but by their own prophet. This is all very sad.
April 19, 2008 at 7:02 am
I think someone at amnesty should get involved
April 19, 2008 at 8:14 am
Help? Somewhere, I think it was here, I read a link to a letter from a woman who says she was also in FLDS and she left, no harm no foul, and did not at all have the same experience as Flora Jessop. Do you know where that was, and if so, can you send me a link (email, or drop it at the blog above).
Thanks.
April 19, 2008 at 8:54 am
More evil than the government acts are those who support those actions.
April 19, 2008 at 9:09 am
This miscarriage of justice has ensured that the next attack on a religious compound will be met with violence that will make Waco look like a picnic.
April 19, 2008 at 9:17 am
Nobody really cared, on the whole, about Waco.
So we shouldn’t be really all that surprised that few are genuinely interested in the truth.
15 years ago today:
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html
April 19, 2008 at 9:18 am
#25 – Maybe it was me mentioning that my wife left the FLDS religion. There are many ex-FLDS people I know personally. Indeed, with the number of children they have, they would surely number in the many hundreds of thousands if no one ever left. It takes having those many children to essentially stay static in numbers, sometimes increasing and at other times losing many (such as when a prophet dies and/or a church split occurs).
To reach me: Cary at earthlink.net
April 19, 2008 at 10:27 am
Cicero,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments on the various FLDS Raid threads. I’ve linked your page in this post as well. It has been quite a ride–which hopefully is not yet over.
modest, Having no choice is not exactly a legal standard–even in West Texas. I don’t believe the judge afforded these children the type of hearing required by the Texas statutes–how unfortunate. I’m not adverse to the DNA testing. I just think the judge short circuited the due process requirements. The tattoo comments were made by a lowlife scum, who I should have completely deleted–but I try not to be an absolute despot–even on my own site–shades of Texas CPS syndrome I guess.
mom2oneson, Sad indeed. Thanks for your comments as well throughout these threads.
Jo, If I were anywhere close–I’d join in.
Gene, Yes, I believe there is credible evidence to support such a conclusion.
Christopher, Yeah–well put.
akhomeschoolfun, I can’t answer why individual hearings were not held. My reading of the statutes leads me to believe that is what was required. Thanks for your comments, links and coverages.
PDOE, Yeah, I agree with that point–a good one. Many of these girls are likely of legal age. And, when you factor into the equation the fact that Texas changed the marriage age to specifically target the FLDS it is repugnant frankly. It’s OK for Texans–but not the FLDS to marry early?
Ardis, Thanks for your continued comments and defense of the rights of the FLDS which seemed to have been lost in the shuffle. I will certainly slow down on my blogging–several reasons–but I will keep my eyes on the developments for sure.
Deputyheadmistress, Like your moniker. Yeah, exactly right–”Dont’t want to know.” Here’s the link I think you referenced:
http://kolobiv.blogspot.com/2008/04/beds-and-temples.html
David G., Thanks for your comments as well. I share your disappointment. About the opinion. In CA, at least, there is no legal requirement that courts at this level publish there opinions. Sometimes they do. Others, do not. Given the quality of West Texas justice we have seen, I would not be surprised to see no formal record. If I happen to come across a written decision I will certainly post it. And, if I miss it, I hope some folks will alert me to it. I’d be curious to hear of her rationale as well.
Tom, I agree. I hope these folks take an appeal, and that it is taken seriously by the appellate courts.
rick, someone should get involved.
Steven, I agree. I would hope it would not happen–but Texas has not put themselves (or anyone else) in a good position on this for future events.
Contributor, I’ve also enjoyed your comments on the various threads. Thanks for your ideas and thoughts.
Cary, Does your wife have only bitter memories of the FLDS experience, or is it a mixture of good and bad?
To all, thanks for your comments. This has been an incredible series of events. I don’t think it is over at all–just the first battle is all. It will be fascinating to watch it unfold. Unfortunately there is real human drama attached to these events, with real people and real lives affected, possibly forever.
April 19, 2008 at 11:15 am
What a sad day for these families. I am so surprised at the lack of media coverage of this tragedy. All I see on the cable tv stations are stories of the Pope and politics. It’s as if these children don’t even matter.
http://dayofpraise.blogspot.com/
April 19, 2008 at 1:44 pm
As a former social worker for CPS in another state, I have intimate knowledge into how these agencies operate. I would like to clear up some understandable misconceptions about the process currently unfolding in Texas. I can understand how many people feel that the state has abused its authority in this case. I will concede that it is certainly possible that CPS in Texas has in fact overreacted. If they have in fact done so, then there is no possible way that CPS will be able to keep these children away from their parents on a permanent basis.
Contrary to popular misconception, it is extremely difficult to terminate parental rights, even in cases where abuse has been substantiated by a court of law. Because I do not have all of the information in this case, I do not feel comfortable commenting on whether or not Texas CPS has acted appropriately in this case. I would also like to remind your readers that although some information has been made public by the authorities, many facts cannot be released to the public due to laws regarding the confidentiality of minors.
Here is the process mandated by federal law that must occur before the rights of these parents can be terminated:
1) Even though the judge in this case has determined that there is just cause to keep the children in custody for now, this does not mean that the parents have lost their parental rights. The next step in this case is called “dependency investigation” in which CPS has the burden of showing that the children must become wards of the state. This is a rather intensive process where social workers must meet with the families and determine whether or not abuse has occurred on a case by case basis. The social worker must provide a report along with evidence to the judge to justify making each child a ward of the state. Clearly, not all of the kids on the ranch have suffered abuse, nor are all children in danger of suffering immediate abuse. At this point of the investigation, it is likely (indeed probable) that some children will be returned to their parents.
2) For those cases in which actual abuse has been substantiated and the children are declared wards of the court, federal law dictates that CPS must begin to provide family reunification services.
3)For children under the age of 3, federal law dictates that family reunification services can last 6 months. For children over the age of 3, family reunification services may last from 12-18 months (and in some cases an additional 6 months). The court has the discretion to deny family reunification services in circumstances where the substantiated abuse is of such a nature (sexual abuse, severe physical abuse) that return to the family is LIKELY to result in further abuse of an egregious nature that poses a direct threat to the child’s life or well-being.
The type of family reunification services mandated by the court depend upon the type of abuse perpetrated by the parents. In the case of children who have not been subjected to sexual abuse but have bee found to suffer from physical abuse, I would imagine that the court-ordered case
plan would involve parenting classes, psychological evaluations,individual therapy for parents, supervised visitation of children with parents (except in the case of sexual abuse, which most likely applies to the fathers) and a court order prohibiting the parents from participating in illegal activities (such as polygamy, although this remains to be seen).
The CPS agency must provide these services to the parents because federal law dictates that CPS must make “reasonable efforts” to reunite families. If the parents meet the goals of the case plan, the court has no choice but to return the children who have not been sexually (or severely physically) abused to their parents. If the parents refuse to cooperate with the court-ordered case plan, then the social worker may recommend a hearing for the termination of parental rights.
Terminating parental rights is not exactly an easy process. I have had cases with parents who are crack addicts that have physically abused their children in unspeakable ways without making the first effort to follow the court-ordered case plan. In many instances, my recommendations for termination of parental rights have been dismissed by the courts.
Despite the misconceptions of many people responding to this bog, courts are NOT eager to terminate parental rights. In fact, federal law sets the bar rather high for doing so.
I share the frustration of many of your readers with how this case was handled. I also feel incredible pain for the children and mothers who have been torn apart. While I find the beliefs and practices of the FLDS members to be repugnant, I do believe that the wholesale removal of every child from the compound was an overreaction (based on the information reported in the media, which, I would again like to remind your readers does not contain the whole story due to the confidential nature of many aspects of the hearings because of the involvement of minors).
Given the unorthodox nature of how the initial hearings were conducted, I suspect that the attorneys for the parents (and many of the children) will file a cavalcate of appeals, some of which will undoubtedly be successful.
I agree that the removal of children who were not being abused by their parents is doubtlessly traumatic for the children. However, CPS may have very well saved many sexually girls from being raped again by adult men in the FLDS church.
I suspect that many of the children will ultimately be returned to their parents as the process unfolds. However, your readers who believe that the fact that authorities cannot locate the girl who originally made allegations of abuse means that CPS has no grounds to investigate the allegations do not understand that CPS agencies do not have a choice in investigating allegations of abuse.
So before you guys begin circling the wagons and start getting paranoid that CPS might be coming for your kids next, relax. If you aren’t raping or beating your kids, you have nothing to worry about. Unless there is a dramatic change in federal law permitting the removal of children from religious groups with “unacceptable doctrines” (that do not involve impregnating underage girls), all of you LDS folks are safe. And the US Constitution prohibits the establishment of just such a law.
I would refer your readers to the following link to learn about the family reunification imperative in federal law: http://www.futureofchildren.org/information2827/information_show.htm?doc_id=210483
I believe that the CPS system has a lot of flaws. Fortunately, CPS does not have the final say in what happens in this case. Courts often have an adversarial relationship with CPS agencies, and the ultimate decisions will be made by the judge.
So while I understand your outrage over what has taken place in Texas, I can assure you that CPS is not as all-powerful as many people think. In a court of law, CPS may be considered the “plaintiff”. If the attorneys of certain parents and children can demonstrate that their children have not been subjected to physical or sexual abuse during the dependency investigation process, the judge has no choice but to return these children to their parents.
I am not an attorney, but my experience has been that if the court does not handle the hearings properly, then the court’s decision will be overturned upon appeal.
I worked for CPS as a family reunification social worker for two years, and the reason I left was because I felt that the state did not provide my clients with the adequate resources necessary to achieve family reunification. Why did the not have these resources? Well, the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1980 which mandated family reunification was essentially unfunded thanks to republicans in congress. I am not trying to start an ideological war here, but you can investigate this fact for yourselves. In the absence of funding, it is very difficult for the CPS agencies to provide effective family reunification services.
So, regardless of your political affiliation, I encourage each of you to write to your representative in Congress to demand full funding of the ASFA of 1980 so that the success rate of family reunification will increase. Even if you have an ideological aversion to federal and state programs, you cannot expect CPS social workers to feed the 5000 with a few crumbs of bread and some rotting fish. If you believe that children belong with their parents, then it is essential that you support the full funding of the ASFA of 1980. Otherwise, these families will not receive adequate services that will allow them to be reunited with their children.
April 19, 2008 at 1:51 pm
PMC: I think it’s a tad misleading to claim that if one isn’t beating or raping their children, CPS won’t come knocking down your doors. We have already shown that all it takes is an unsubstantiated claim with no investigation.
April 19, 2008 at 1:52 pm
error: AFSA took place in 1997, not 1980
April 19, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Gene:
I did not say that CPS will not come knocking on your doors due to an unsubstantiated allegation. Perhaps I wasn’t clear enough.
If a disgruntled neighbor reports you to CPS, they are required by law to investigate. However, if they find no evidence of physical abuse, sexual abuse, or neglect, then they cannot remove your kids.
The case of the kids in Texas is incredibly complex because it is difficult to determine what constitutes a “household”. In most cases a household consists of parents (or parent) and the kids. In that case, if hte kids are not being subjected to physical and/or sexual abuse or neglect, you do in fact have nothing to worry about.
April 19, 2008 at 2:13 pm
I think they should send in Jimmy Carter to negotiate with the parents!
April 19, 2008 at 2:20 pm
To Cicero:
Your post is excellent but I fear a lot of people might not read to the end where you urge people to contact their representatives. In fact it would be a public service to post that suggestion on other blogs such as the Salt Lake Tribune, etc. I have been monitoring those sites and many people express the desire to “do something” about this but have no direction.
April 19, 2008 at 3:05 pm
“I agree that the removal of children who were not being abused by their parents is doubtlessly traumatic for the children. However, CPS may have very well saved many sexually girls from being raped again by adult men in the FLDS church.”
I don’t get that the jump from this is ok to violate for this person because it may save someone else. The call was the only reason rape was suspected. The supposed rapist husband was not even in the state. Why not just interview the girls there? The state had already decided the parents were guilty before the investigation started.
The legal age of marriage in TX is 16 and there is no medical evidence of girls younger than that sexually active or pregnant. Don’t you think wrong that these kids are away from their parents right now? The fact that it is not permanent is not any consolation to the families who are suffering right now. If it was permanent decision that would be another blow but it doesn’t make the current situation better. There should have been an attempt to place this kids with a relative or friend before this temp custody hearing. The lawyers of the child asked what the parents could do to get them back. Mothers were willing to move apart that day and their children still remained in the state custody.
The mothers can’t access a lawyer or a phone even to defend their families. Do you see CPS as the government? Because it’s temporary it should not give them a free pass or immunity do unjust things to families like they do. The burden should be on the state, not the parents to get their kid back when they have shown they are not guilty.
“If you aren’t raping or beating your kids, you have nothing to worry about”
That is not true. The reports from parents are the same all over the country. CPS demands entry into homes without warrants, lies to gain access, threatens and intimidates parents into letting them in, questions children without a search warrant or parental permission, removes children without good reason. Even if they are not placed in care, usually the investigation often violates parent’s rights. Families should not be forced to undergo that because the system assumes they are guilty. Families should not have to prove they are innocent. Why does CPS often “fish” for things that are not even part of the original allegations? Why do they lie? Why do they use intimidation? Why are parents guilty based on a phone call and then have to prove they are innocent? Why do CPS workers believe they have a right to interview children without a search warrant or an emergency situation?
As far as writing for more funding, families should not be broken up in the first place. There should be no special funding in the first place for seizing kids and placing them in adoption and foster care. We don’t need for reunification funding the reward for placing kids should stop. There is often a friend or relative who is willing to care for the child when a parent can’t. This goes on all the time without government involvement. Plenty of kids are raised by Aunts and grandmothers. With HIPAA laws and insurance it makes things harder if the person is not their legal guardian. If CPS and foster care was not set up, there would be churches willing to care for children. With the current system the friend or relative is given an extremely hard time by CPS so they give up and the kid stays with strangers in foster care.
“However, your readers who believe that the fact that authorities cannot locate the girl who originally made allegations of abuse means that CPS has no grounds to investigate the allegations do not understand that CPS agencies do not have a choice in investigating allegations of abuse.”
Nobody here is against CPS investigating. 1. Why did it take so long from the call? Don’t workers usually have 24 hours to do an assessment? If it was such an emergency to get a search warrant, why was there such a time delay?
2. The assessment does not have to violate parent’s rights. Parents & children should still be protected during the process. References can be given and checked, a child can be seen without being questioned, CPS workers can meet parents outside of their homes in the presence of the parents lawyer and clergy to do their assessment. Even if parents do not wish to comply with an investigation, it does not give them the right to enter parent’s homes without a search warrant unless it is an emergency. It’s up to the CPS worker to get a warrant, they should not lie and intimidate parents and show up with law enforcement. Parents should be circling their wagon and know their rights and what to do if there is an investigation, it might save them and their children from harm by the state. CPS does not see what they do as an invasion of privacy.
PMC I really enjoy reading what you wrote and reading about your experience.
April 19, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Good idea Laura!!!!
What about letters to the paper? Would someone who is a good writer post a letter we can send out?
April 19, 2008 at 3:26 pm
Another interesting note – our (I’m from BC Canada) Attorney General has stated that some of these children are Canadian kids. While we don’t have all the facts yet, the speculation here is that they were not with their biological families on the ranch, but have been sent to the ranch from the BC (Bountiful)FLDS community to live with on the Texas ranch with families there. Suggestions have been made that this was Warren Jeffs “cream of the crop” people specifically selected for his Zion and that young children (with or without their parents) were being selected as he felt they were less comtaminated. This is just speculation of course, but the DNA testing is likely going to reveal some interesting details. If they are transporting minors across International lines, then this is going to be more than just a Texas case, – could turn international.
I left a semi-reclusive cult like religion. (I even had that nice poofy hair these girls have). However, it was nowhere near as restrictive and controlling as this one. Yet still, I am aware how that type of spiritual control over your soul, particularly how it controls women, has such a strong fear based hold on a person. Even though I have been out for several years, I still wake up at night and wonder if I’m damned to hell for not listening to “the prophet” (not the same one as the FLDS – there are a few floating around out there). I guess that’s why I find myself coming back to this website and reading people’s comments. Kind of like not being able to turn away from the scene of a train wreck. I found it so hard to watch the women speak like robots. This whole case is very disturbing. I truly believe that the judge did the right thing here and that each child will get their own case heard.
April 19, 2008 at 3:45 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080419/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat_judge
April 19, 2008 at 4:36 pm
Mr. Murray,
I want to thank you for this web site detailing this travesty of justice. I am neither Mormon nor affiliated with the FLDS but I feel both saddend and outraged at the Texas state responce to an unsubstansiated complaint.
Thank you!
http://www.brianf.us
April 19, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Mom2oneson,
I want to emphasize that I do not in any way doubt that CPS sometimes misuses their authority. However, the complaints you listed cannot be placed at the feet of CPS. I will address your concerns one by one:
1) You said: “I don’t get that the jump from this is ok to violate for this person because it may save someone else. The call was the only reason rape was suspected. The supposed rapist husband was not even in the state. Why not just interview the girls there? The state had already decided the parents were guilty before the investigation started.”
Again, I want to reiterate the fact that the investigators of this case are faced with an heretofore unheard of situation. Because of the polygamous nature of the FLDS and their communal living arrangements, CPS officials are in uncharted territory. Since FLDS members do not conform to the traditional family structure, it is almost impossible to determine what constitutes a child’s home. FLDS children refer to a number of women as “mothers”. So, how would you define a child’s “home”? Is it the room shared with a mother or mothers, or can it be extended to the entire compound?
Furthermore, in so-called “traditional homes” with multiple children, CPS frequently removes all the children from the home if one child has been abused. If a father severely beats his daughter while the mother stands by and does nothing to prevent the abuse (such as calling the police) in such a family, should the other children remain in such a potentially deadly environment? Of course not. In such a case, all the kids would be removed from that home. It is common sense.
Furthermore, from the reports I read, the girls were in fact interviewed at the ranch prior to removal. The information gleaned from these interviews (in addition to the state’s claim that there were pregnant teens on the ranch) is what justified the removal.
2) You said: “There should have been an attempt to place this kids with a relative or friend before this temp custody hearing.”
Actually, the law dictates that CPS workers search for relative placements before placing children in a non-relative foster care. However, in this case, all of the relatives are presumably members of the FLDS sect. Because the FLDS members have been less than forthcoming about their practices re: underage marriage, would you want a 14 year old girl placed with a relative who believes that it is ok for the girl to be married and impregnated by an older man?
3) You said, “The mothers can’t access a lawyer or a phone even to defend their families. Do you see CPS as the government? Because it’s temporary it should not give them a free pass or immunity do unjust things to families like they do. The burden should be on the state, not the parents to get their kid back when they have shown they are not guilty.”
All of the parents in this case have attorneys. And the burden IS on the state to prove (during the dependency investigation process) that the children should become wards of the state due to objective evidence of abuse (and I doubt they will meet this burden is some cases). IF the state meets this burden, then yes, the burden shifts to the parents to follow court-ordered case plans to get their kids back.
4) You wrote, “As far as writing for more funding, families should not be broken up in the first place. There should be no special funding in the first place for seizing kids and placing them in adoption and foster care. We don’t need for reunification funding the reward for placing kids should stop. There is often a friend or relative who is willing to care for the child when a parent can’t. This goes on all the time without government involvement. Plenty of kids are raised by Aunts and grandmothers. With HIPAA laws and insurance it makes things harder if the person is not their legal guardian. If CPS and foster care was not set up, there would be churches willing to care for children. With the current system the friend or relative is given an extremely hard time by CPS so they give up and the kid stays with strangers in foster care.”
I had a case where a child was repeatedly sold by his mother to pedophiles to support her crack habit. There was no known family willing to take this child. Are you actually saying that there should be no funding to remove this child from his/her situation? Incidentally, this case represents a very mild case of abuse compared to many others on my caseload. I had another case where a drug addicted mother punished her toddler by sticking him with her dirty IV drug needles. The child contracted HIV. No family members were willing to take the kid. Are you arguing that there should be no funding for the state to remove the child from that situation and provide medical care for that child?
You are correct that there are instances in which the family of an abusive parent steps in to care for a child without government interference. However, in such a situation the parent can (and often does) claim to authorities that their child has been “kidnapped” by the well-intentioned relative. Guess what happens then? The police have no choice but to return the child to the abusive parent absent any proof of abuse. Church members cannot care for such a child because a) they have no legal standing to serve as that child’s guardian and they could also be accused of kidnapping by the abusive parent”; b) Since church members are not the legal guardians for the child in question, they cannot provide legal consent for medical, dental, and psychological treatment for the child.
There is also no “reward” for placing children in care. Quite the contrary. The financial burden on the state is quite high, and the family reunification requirement was created in an attempt to PREVENT children from becoming permanent wards of the state. Federal law is very much geared towards getting the children OUT of care and helping the parents get their kids back.
You are right in asserting that foster care is not an ideal arrangement. But I am glad that there are foster parents willing to take the children in when no family members are willing or able to step in.
5)You wrote: “Why did it take so long from the call? Don’t workers usually have 24 hours to do an assessment? If it was such an emergency to get a search warrant, why was there such a time delay?”
The time required to conduct an assessment varies depending on the allegations. In this case, I would imagine that the investigation took place later due to the extraordinary circumstances of this particular case. Furthermore, a search warrant is not necessarily required for CPS to conduct an investigation.
You wrote: “The assessment does not have to violate parent’s rights. Parents & children should still be protected during the process. References can be given and checked, a child can be seen without being questioned, CPS workers can meet parents outside of their homes in the presence of the parents lawyer and clergy to do their assessment. Even if parents do not wish to comply with an investigation, it does not give them the right to enter parent’s homes without a search warrant unless it is an emergency. It’s up to the CPS worker to get a warrant, they should not lie and intimidate parents and show up with law enforcement. Parents should be circling their wagon and know their rights and what to do if there is an investigation, it might save them and their children from harm by the state. CPS does not see what they do as an invasion of privacy.”
Again, warrants are not necessary for CPS to investigate a claim of abuse. And you have no evidence that CPS workers lied and intimated the parents in this case. As far as doing an assessment without interviewing a child, please tell me how a CPS worker can ascertain whether or not a child has been sexually abused (unless the child is 14 and pregnant) without speaking to the child? If an allegation of child rape does not constitute an emergency, then what does?
5) You wrote: “Why does CPS often “fish” for things that are not even part of the original allegations? Why do they lie? Why do they use intimidation? Why are parents guilty based on a phone call and then have to prove they are innocent?”
I will not deny that there are social workers who use intimidation and lies. These losers comprise a small minority. As far as “fishing” for things that are not part of an allegation goes, I am assuming you mean that it is not ok for CPS to ask about other forms of abuse. Generally, multiple forms of abuse take place in a given family. CPS has a legal obligation to determine whether or not abuse (sexual and physical) or neglect is taking place, and they must do a comprehensive assessment.
Yes, parents should know their rights. However, you are wrong in assuming that the system automatically deems them “guilty”. That simply is not the case. If CPS investigates and finds no existence of abuse, then that is the end of the investigation. Period.
As far as parents being interviewed in the presence of their lawyers, that is irrelevant. A pregnant teenager precludes the need to interview the parents if the teenager states that her 40 year old spiritual husband is the father.
I am not a fan of CPS for a variety of reasons. However, I think that many people are automatically jumping to inaccurate conclusions in this case. If CPS behaved inappropriately, I can assure you that the attorneys for the parents and children will bring such inappropriate behavior to light.
If you do not like the way the law is set up to protect children from abuse, then I encourage you to write your representatives and engage in activism to change the law. However, as previously stated, I doubt that any of you would seriously argue that the state should not protect a child from physical abuse, sexual abuse, or extreme neglect.
Also, you may not be aware of this, but the state provides financial assistance to relatives of children who have been removed from their abusive parents to help care for their basic needs. Relative foster care is always the first choice by CPS, but sadly, many relatives either do not want to take the children in or they are unsuitable for the task (i.e., they are sex offenders, homeless, have an extensive criminal record involving violent acts, etc).
If you really want to make a difference, you can become a foster parent yourself. There is also a volunteer program called CASA (Court-appointed special advocate) that you can participate in which will allow you to be a mini-social worker of sorts. As a CASA, the court will consider your input when making decisions pertaining to children who are dependents of the state.
April 19, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Guy – my wife has both good and bad memories, for sure. It’s an interesting story, I think. BTW, thanks for Messenger & Advocate – I’m glad I found my way here!
PMC – thank you for an insightful explanation of CPS-related matters. Honestly, I wonder what “abuse” and “neglect” really mean? If FLDS parents don’t raise their children to know how to get along in the outside world (outside their isolated culture), is that considered abuse or neglect? It seems like Texas authorities define those terms as they want. And why not? Our federal government excludes waterboarding, for example, as being a form of torture!
You speak only of sexual and physical abuse (and briefly mention neglect), but surely no one in their right mind believes all 416 children have endured sexual and/or physical abuse, so Texas obviously must have a broader definition. It simply blows my mind that infants, for example, can’t return with their mothers to the YFZ Ranch.
April 19, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Cary wrote:”PMC – thank you for an insightful explanation of CPS-related matters. Honestly, I wonder what “abuse” and “neglect” really mean? If FLDS parents don’t raise their children to know how to get along in the outside world (outside their isolated culture), is that considered abuse or neglect? It seems like Texas authorities define those terms as they want. And why not? Our federal government excludes waterboarding, for example, as being a form of torture!
You speak only of sexual and physical abuse (and briefly mention neglect), but surely no one in their right mind believes all 416 children have endured sexual and/or physical abuse, so Texas obviously must have a broader definition. It simply blows my mind that infants, for example, can’t return with their mothers to the YFZ Ranch.”
As I stated previously, I believe that the court will find that not all of the children have suffered from physical abuse/neglect. Texas’ actions in this case stems from the rather unconventional family structure of FLDS members. It is virtually impossible to make heads or tails of who fathered whom, which of the “sister wives” are mothers, etc.
Neglect is not a nebulous concept and refers exclusively to cases in which the childs physical needs (food, water, bathing, clothing) are not being met. Physical abuse is actually defined by the laws of most states, and they do vary state by state. Texas undoubtedly has such laws. As far as sexual abuse is concerned, well, I do not think I need to define that for you.
Texas CPS was placed in a position where it was virtually impossible to find out which family a child belongs to. The fact that none of the girls knew their birthdays further complicates matters. The labyrinthine nature of family relationships could take months to figure out. Therefore, Texas CPS may have decided to err on the side of caution by removing all of the children.
There are many groups that one could argue do not prepare their children for the “outside world”. The Amish immediately come to mind. This does not constitute neglect or abuse, and I know of no cases in which the Amish have had all of their kids removed. Child rape does constitute abuse, and the polygamous and communal nature of FLDS families complicates the picture.
Yes, I feel for these poor kids and their mothers. The children are being taken away from the only life they know. However, if that lifestyle includes child rape, then they are ultimately better off if these allegations are substantiated.
April 19, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Speaking of water boarding, Carolyn Jessop, author of ‘Escape’ and former 4th wife of Eldorado Ranch leader Merrill Jessop, now is alleging Merrill would often “water board” torture infants under a faucet! (Don’t know if Carolyn mentioned this in her book or not.) Authorities anywhere have to precipitously act when they believe children are in danger ( . . . still, it’d be nice to “take a page from Maury” by administering lie detector tests to both informants such as Carolyn and alleged perpetrators such as “Uncle” Merrill!)
Carolyn Jessop, the author of ‘Escaped’ and the former 4th wife of the leader of the Eldorado Ranch
April 19, 2008 at 7:33 pm
(Sorry for the repetition in my last line above. And hope Carlolyn isn’t indulging in Salem Witch Trials-level baiting!)
April 19, 2008 at 9:09 pm
PMC – thanks again for your insight! Nevertheless, I still have many questions, and my 64 years lead me to be very skeptical of much that simply doesn’t make sense.
A mother breast-feeding her infant during the two weeks preceding the court hearing ought to be sufficient evidence that she is the child’s mother. Some FLDS women testified (under oath) that they would be willing to leave the FLDS ranch if they could have their children. Surely, there must have been numerous examples for CPS to have determine relationships based, for example, on the conduct of 3 & 4 year olds who don’t fake their actions. Nevertheless, Texas officials don’t trust any FLDS adult or child but choose instead to farm out all 416 children to foster homes. How absolutely ridiculous, heartbreaking, and damaging to these children!
“[T]o err on the side of caution” affords unlimited abuse (by CPS and the legal system)!
Don’t you see anything in all the reports, etc., that makes you question the actions of CPS or the judge?
I know personally many FLDS families, and they are wonderful people whom I respect and even admire in many ways. But the vast majority of people seem to think the FLDS are so weird that they should be treated in ways no one would condone in regular society.
April 19, 2008 at 9:15 pm
This whole issue focuses unfairly on this religious group. Ok supposedly really young teenagers are forced into marriage by peer pressure from their family. This is no worse than teenage girls being forced into sexual activity from their peers in secular society. This is so prevalent that the government even funded that HPV vaccine intended for young prepubescent girls allegedly to protect them from disease during their sexual adventures.
So this proves that the so called intention of the government saving people from underage sex is about is plausible as saving someones soul by burning them alive. Has anyone noticed how many people get abortions these days ? There is something Seriously wrong with our society.
Giving birth is painful and I wouldn’t wish it on anyone who doesn’t want kids so the question is … Do these young girls want kids ? This is an issue of human rights and yes a 13 year old girl is entitled to them. Isn’t falling in love and getting married a human right ? If she doesn’t want to get married and become a Nun for the rest of her life that is ok too.
This case was never what it claims to be. It is a HATE CRIME. They are stealing Mormon kids so that they can take away their culture and change their religion. It is genocide right here in our country. It is at best selective prosecution. There are millions of kids who actually need help and aren’t getting any because the money is being wasted on this stupid fiasco.
I don’t believe that anyone can love a child more than his/her mother. Has anyone noticed how motherhood is scorned instead of celebrated ? To disrespect motherhood is to disrespect women. The myth that women are better off after womens lib is not so true. Women in modern life are considered sex objects to be used and dumped in many relationships. Modern men mostly dont want marriage and those marriages that do happen often fail.
I think we could learn some useful things from these FLDS people. Like maturity for instance. That is certainly a rare thing to find these days.
In summary the govt could care less about underage teen sex the country has thousands of pregnant teens. What they want to do is destroy the institution of the extended family.
April 19, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Thanks for the link. It’s not at all surprising that the initial removal was granted; they almost always are, if for no other reason than that there’s usually not enough time to complete the investigation or do a home study on relative placements, and judges tend to err on the side of caution. In fact, in nearly 10 years of doing CPS cases, the only time I saw a removal flat-out denied was when I (as ad litem for the children) pointed out that the CPS caseworkers (who didn’t even bother to come to court) had committed perjury in their affidavits.
April 19, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Local Crank,
What are your thoughts on the denial of individual hearings for each child before the judge ruled? My reading of the Texas Family Code statutes led me to believe each child removed by CPS is entitled to a full hearing on the merits. Nothing even close to that happened in this case.
April 19, 2008 at 9:29 pm
I should hasten to add that the vast majority of CPS caseworkers I’ve encountered are hard-working, caring, compassionate people who do things like spend the night (unpaid) in their offices with children who can’t be immediately placed in foster care. CPS is under-funded, under-staffed, over-worked and under-appreciated. Like most things in Texas, this can be laid at the feet of the Legislature, composed of politicians who care nothing about children or any other constituency that can’t vote or (more importantly) donate money to campaigns.
April 19, 2008 at 9:33 pm
“My reading of the Texas Family Code statutes led me to believe each child removed by CPS is entitled to a full hearing on the merits.”
In cases where multiple siblings are removed, for example, you typically only have one hearing, unless their circumstances are wildly different. Here, the State is trying to argue that all 416 kids are members of the same household, in order to justify placing all of them in foster care when clearly not all of them are in danger. This is ludicrous, since it would imply that every town in Texas with less than 1,000 people constitutes a single household. This case has violated so many CPS rules, guidelines and standard procedures that I’m beginning to suspect this was a law enforcement operation and CPS has been left holding the bag. For one thing, CPS would’ve removed the alleged perpetrators (the husbands) and left the women and children in place to receive services. For another, if CPS does a removal, they NEVER allow a parent to just “ride along” since, by definition, if a parent is safe to be around a child, there’s no need for removal in the first place.
April 19, 2008 at 9:39 pm
Local Crank,
OK, thanks for that clarification. I can see how multiple siblings from one family would arguably be given one hearing only; but, one hearing, as you point out for an entire community is just crazy!
I agree with you about the law enforcement aspect of this. Sounds to me like there are potential appellate issues, including procedural due process and more. I hope the mothers/fathers/children pursue them, where appropriate.
I appreciate your input.
April 19, 2008 at 9:53 pm
Cary,
I absolutely find plenty of reasons to question or at least be concerned about the actions of the Texas CPS. What I am trying to explain is that the notion that CPS can walk into your home and take away your children for no reason is tantamount to the anti-government paranoia espoused by a right-wing militia in Michigan.
Abuse of power occurs whenever there is power, whether it takes place at the hand of the IRS, Homeland Security, CPS, or a multinational corporation.
Again, this case is the first of its kind. You have a group of people who live in such a manner that the traditional notion of what constitutes a family is rendered meaningless. CPS officials are dealing with a situation that is unlike anything they have been faced with before. There is no “play book”.
The judge’s decision to proceed to dependency investigation hearings will likely result in many children returning home. This process does NOT take years. In fact, it generally takes a matter of months at most. These hearings can actually take much less time, but in this case we have a small town with limited resources having to conduct these hearings for hundreds of children.
Do I think things could have been handled differently? Sure, based on my knowledge of the case, which I will remind you YET AGAIN, is necessarily incomplete due to the confidential nature of many aspects of the hearing.
I am not a cold-hearted SOB. The pain these mothers and children are experiencing breaks my heart. However, my experience working in CPS gives me full confidence that the parents who are not found to have either a) committed abuse or b) had knowledge of the abuse without reporting it, will get their kids back.
Parents who know of abuse being perpetrated against their kids by the other parent are usually charged with “failure to protect”. This charge will apply to many of the mothers. If these mothers follow their court-ordered case plans, they WILL get their children back. If they refuse, then they run the risk of losing their children.
If these mothers are willing to do “whatever it takes” to get their kids back, many of them will likely be required to find a residence (likely outside of the compound) where the perpetrators (fathers) have no access to the children. It will be interesting to see how many of them choose to abandon their rapist husbands and defy their deeply held religious convictions in order to do so.
April 19, 2008 at 10:13 pm
PMC Thank you for explaining so much!
April 19, 2008 at 10:19 pm
“However, my experience working in CPS gives me full confidence that the parents who are not found to have either a) committed abuse or b) had knowledge of the abuse without reporting it, will get their kids back.”
My experience coincides with PMC’s in that regard. That’s why I usually counsel clients in CPS cases that there is no such thing as too much cooperation. In fact, given how overloaded CPS is, I have had several cases where the parents have had to hire social workers to perform home studies, mental health workers to do psychiatric examinations, and labs to do drug testing. PMC is also correct that this process will not take years; in fact, it can’t. The case has to be concluded in 12 months, with the judge having the right to a 6 month extension in “extraordinary circumstances” (which I think we can ALL agree apply here). Of course, the problem with that deadline is that many times CPS moves for termination in cases where family reunification might be possible given a little more time.
April 19, 2008 at 10:57 pm
PMC – most of what you say appears logical and acceptable, but then you make me cringe when you say: “It will be interesting to see how many of them [the FLDS wives] choose to abandon their rapist husbands and defy their deeply held religious convictions in order to do so [to get their children back].” Why do you assume their husbands are all rapists? You and Crank also seem to imply that the only way these women will get their children is to leave the FLDS faith altogether – such confirms that this is more than a case of protecting children but destroying a faith!
April 19, 2008 at 11:13 pm
In recent years, there have been numerous stories in newspapers around the world about the failures of the departments of Family Services and Social Services to do their respective jobs of monitoring and assisting children in dangerous situations. Do we ever read about a child murdered by a family that the Department of Children & Families or the Sheriff’s Office has not already investigated, usually more than once? What will it take to protect these innocent children?
These stories are a step in the right direction, but one wonders if perhaps they came too late. All the outrage in the world can’t resurrect a dead child.
Too many children have died as a result of wrong decisions by CPS. With power comes responsibility and accountability, which most officials ignore. A child welfare system so overwhelmed with children who DON’T need to be in foster care,the less time they have to find children in real danger.
Let’s NOT allow these precious children’s death to be in vain – in the news one day, forgotten the next.
Children Who Didn’t Have to Die – Website http://suncanaa.com/
“The state is now more involved than it has ever been in the raising of children, and children are now more neglected, abused, and mistreated than they have been in our time. This is not a coincidence, and, with all due respect, I am here to tell you: It does not take a village to raise a child. – It takes a family.” – By Senator Robert Dole
April 20, 2008 at 12:27 am
Since there kids were kept based on their religion should the moms attend First Baptist and after the salvation message Wed night they should go up for prayer and “accept Christ” and be “saved” and attend Sunday School and women’s meetings on a regular basis?
April 20, 2008 at 3:42 am
Again, I can’t sleep, although the night is nearly over. I simply cannot stop feeling so very upset by a system that defies my form of logic and reason. 416 children taken from their mothers, in part by a system which suddenly chooses to define a “household” as an entire community!
Every time someone maintains that in our legal system, a person is innocent until proven guilty, I want to vomit! Nothing could be further from the truth, and this Texas fiasco is a prime example. In reality, these FLDS people are guilty until proven innocent – 100 percent!
No wonder the FLDS want to remain a closed society! There is far more evil in modern American society than among them – this is obvious to me who knows many of these people! Immorality in today’s culture, for example, produces far more underage pregnancies than among the FLDS. 70 percent of black infants are born to unwed mothers, but somehow that and countless other serious problems get ignored while Texas officials rather introduce 416 children to a culture they are not prepared to handle, insisting that it is better than what they have endured! Like me, many good FLDS people are appalled that society willingly accepts homosexuality while polygamy, which is widely practiced in many cultures around the world, is shunned and despised.
If I appear angry, well, I am – greatly! I’m very upset by a lack of outrage on the part of the vast majority of Americans, simply because the media presents only negative reports about a group of people trying to live a religion our culture finds repulsive. And, apparently, Texas insists it won’t take place in their backyard!
Thanks so very much to those of you who, for the most part, empathize with my views and outrage!
April 20, 2008 at 6:28 am
Ok – put these kids in foster care – r i g h t – they will really get taken care of…Not. There are many caring families that are foster parents but – as we all know – that is where more abuse than gets reported takes place. If we allow as a society gay marriage and adoption, I think we need to let these people be. Make them promise from now on – no marriage under 16. I have to say though – they seem happy to me. As a former Planned Parenthood volunteer I saw many girls MANY GIRLS in trouble at 13. You tell me – what is the solution. I don’t like the teachings of bigotry – and fear – but they are living a life of worship to God, who are we to judge? As Jesus said, he that is without sin – let him pick up the first stone. BTW – I know someone from a prominent successful local family that is a ‘concubine’ and it is accepted, we have all of these things going on that are swept under the rug-
April 20, 2008 at 7:34 am
Cary These people need a lawyer from an organization that is powerful who can file something, that is the only thing that will give them rights again. CPS will keep being a bully unless that happens.
April 20, 2008 at 7:48 am
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8989851
April 20, 2008 at 8:05 am
“She also admits that many innocent mothers will suffer as a result of this ruling.”
And that right there is what happens when their Constitution rights are violated. I said from the beginning this is going to cause bad guys to walk and innocent to be punished.
April 20, 2008 at 10:11 am
I’ve read the above arguments by “PMC” with great interest. While I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush, I have had experience with CPS workers in several states, in a variety of circumstances, including: (1) as an abused child, (2) as a juvenile probation officer, and (3) as a guardian ad litem. I’ve also had other experiences which I’m not at liberty to detail here. As a result of my combined experiences, I have formed a decidedly negative view of CPS workers and their agencies.
When I was a child in Washington, neighbors heard my screams and made complaints. I finally ran away from home, and when I was picked up by police in Oregon, I informed them of why I had fled my home. Admittedly, this was before the days of mandatory investigation, but CPS workers in two states evidently didn’t think I was worth defending.
As a juvenile probation officer in Utah, I saw countless instances where CPS refused to be involved where they were clearly needed, or overreacted when they weren’t needed. On one occasion, I was forced to fight against a CPS supervisor after a young boy repeatedly raped his six year old sister. Why? Because the CPS supervisor who was first brought into the case felt it would be “disruptive” to remove the perpetrator from his home, and that it would be much better to keep him in the home with his victim. Once I became involved, I promptly did the responsible thing, by having the then-alleged perpetrator removed from the home and placed in custody. The CPS worker was livid, and tried to get me reprimanded and/or fired.
As a guardian ad litem in Illinois, I represented the best interests of the child, but often found myself at odds with CPS workers (most of whom never bothered to have and raise their OWN children) who seemed entirely driven by their own egos. In one case, children were removed from a filthy home, but because the mother clashed with the assigned CPS worker (yes, the worker was rather open about this factor), the worker was determined never to allow reunification, despite the fact that the mother essentially had her trailer rebuilt from the shell inward, in efforts to comply. The same CPS worker, along with some of her fellow CPS thugs, removed a 14 year old girl from the home of her grandmother and legal guardian, because the girl’s boyfriend “had been allowed” to get her pregnant. CPS argued that this proved the grandmother’s supervision was inadequate. My response, of course, was that if CPS took every pregnant minor away from their “thus proven negligent” parents, there would be many more thousands of teens in foster care. The CPS worker made it clear to me that it was her intention to take the girl’s baby away, if she could find any basis at all to do so. The young woman in question was finally allowed to return to her legal guardian’s home, but only after nearly a year of legal wrangling. In the process, the girl was told by the judge and CPS workers that her return home was contingent on HER behavior, and that if she found herself in further legal involvement, she would again be removed. The burden, in other words, was placed on the minor, rather than on the guardian.
My overall impression is that many CPS workers are ego-driven individuals, who commit outrageous acts (and non-acts) under color of law, all the while trumpeting how they’re “saving the children.” From what I’ve seen and heard of the Texas situation, nothing has changed that perception.
April 20, 2008 at 10:39 am
PMC I want to ask you -
“Again, warrants are not necessary for CPS to investigate a claim of abuse.”
It’s the investigation part here that is my big question. : )
How does this fit in with people’s right to privacy? They of course can investigate but parents do not have any obligation to give information or to them or let them in their home or let them speak ot their children. I don’t understand the right to investigate like speaking to a child, entering a home, examining a child, without a warrant or parental permission?
April 20, 2008 at 11:13 am
“Speaking of water boarding, Carolyn Jessop, author of ‘Escape’ and former 4th wife of Eldorado Ranch leader Merrill Jessop, now is alleging Merrill would often “water board” torture infants under a faucet!”
And the Iraqis in GW1 were tossing Kuwaiti babies out of incubators.
Saddam Hussein had Weapons of Mass Destruction.
During WW1 German soliders tossed Belgian babies in the air and skewered them with bayonets.
Yes sounds like the truth to me.
April 20, 2008 at 11:48 am
TX Comptroller, Carole Keeton-Strayhorn, in 2004, found CPS foster care kids–raped, murdered, poisoned.
“When I called on Gov. Perry in October 2004 to create a Crisis Management Team, I said the crisis was minute-by-minute and child-by-child.
“In Fiscal 2004, four-year old twin boys living in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape.
“A five-year old boy in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape two days later.
“A 15-year old girl who was not pregnant when she entered our state’s foster care system in May 2002 gave birth in February 2004.
“The state is supposed to be protecting our forgotten children, but in all too many cases these children are taken from one abusive situation and placed in another abusive situation. Many children are in more abusive situations now than they were before the state intervened. Children are being neglected and abused and are dying.”
Carole Keeton-Strayhorn CPS report for full details.
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html
April 20, 2008 at 11:53 am
Baptists Child and Family Services is running the show here.
Did you all know BCFS is running the shelters through their ‘humanitarian’ nonprofit.
And, pull down the ‘services’ menu and you will also see the Baptist offer “foster care and ADOPTION” service too.
Take a look at photos of these children. They are beautiful blond hair blue eyed innocents.
CPS states the’ve had hundreds of call already to foster/adopt these FLDS children.
What we have here folks…is a blond hair, blued eyed baby harvest at the hands of the Baptist in TX.
I am a christian…lived in TX–and you can count on the corruption in the Baptist church to see this through…along with CPS workers.
April 20, 2008 at 11:55 am
ADDENDUM –
Here is the link to the Baptist Child and Family Services advertising managing the shelters with photos of FLDS kids.
Pull down ‘services’ to see ‘foster/adoption services’ too.
http://www.bcfs.net/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=581&srcid=183
April 20, 2008 at 12:20 pm
AR Maybe her statement about waterboarding will expose her character to the public.
If Mr. Jessop has several daughters in his home he probably has to wait in line just to hold his infant.
April 20, 2008 at 12:44 pm
CPS (or any other gov’t agency except of course for Homeland Security) needs a warrant to enter your home. However, CPS does not need a warrant to remove your children, just an affidavit stating they have a reasonable belief that the children’s present environment is a danger to their physical or emotional well-being. Is that vague? Well, yes, but the Texas Legislature drew it up and even in our allegedly conservative State, the Lege tends to err on the side of the government. I must disagree with PMC about the difficulty of termination; even in my relatively small county, it happens on a regular basis, usually in cases where the parents (often drug abusers) can’t clean up their act before the mandatory trial date (12-18 months). I have had several cases where I felt the parents were coerced into voluntarily terminating their parental rights, upon threat that any future children would be automatically taken away from them if they didn’t. In some cases, I have felt that CPS was acting like an adoption agency for foster parents they liked. The real problem is that very few judges will ever question CPS or hold them to account. The entire system, frankly, is in horrible shape, and not likely to improve any time soon.
April 20, 2008 at 12:56 pm
As to CPS requiring the parents to renounce their faith, that is an interesting (and potentially frightening) point. One mother testified that she would leave the Ranch and refuse to allow her daughter to marry before age 18, but of course she still didn’t get her kids back. I have encountered a similar mindset in some cases where CPS demands that parents admit that they abused their children, even tho’ the parents are adament that they never did and claiming otherwise to expose them to criminal charges. In other words, you have to agree that CPS was right, even if they were wrong, in order to prevent your kids being taken away permanently. I suppose I take this issue somewhat personally since, as an American Indian, I am painfully aware of the history (up until at least the 1960′s) of well-meaning people in the gov’t and the church taking Indian children away from their families and raising them as white people because “it was for their own good.”
April 20, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Local Crank – thanks for an honest appraisal of your own profession. In my eyes, that makes you someone I can trust. We all know there is good and bad in everything, and honest people willingly admit this. I’m not implying that PMC is different, as she too mentioned various CPS actions she doesn’t like, even going so far as to leave the profession. I just wish she hadn’t closed her comments with a harsh statement that prejudges FLDS men (“It will be interesting to see how many of them [the FLDS wives] choose to abandon their rapist husbands….”). Personally, I fear that type of thinking pervades CPS and even perhaps the judiciary and Texas legislature.
April 20, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Local Crank – Wow! Being age 64 and a Utah resident, I remember very well those days when Indian children were sent off to white folk “for their own good.” I had completely forgotten about that, even though I knew some of those children personally. Wow – the abuse continues, but only this time with a different group of other society doesn’t understand. (I guess you’ve heard how the Australian government recently apologized to the Aborigines for having done the same thing.)
April 20, 2008 at 2:06 pm
“(I guess you’ve heard how the Australian government recently apologized to the Aborigines for having done the same thing.)”
The Australian government was removing Aboriginal children “for their own good” until the most recent election when the government changed. But, sadly, Australia learned everything it knows about treating Indigenous people from America.
April 20, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Response to PMC:
I am opposed to AFSA (adoption & safe family act) until such time it does not rely on the judgement of social workers to implement it. Many people don’t understand what can happen with “family reunification” so I offer the following example.
I am in Oregon and some of you may have heard of the “Baby Gabriel” case which concluded just a few weeks ago. This child was placed in foster care as an infant because both parents were in prison. The mother is an American citizen but the father is Mexican and will be deported upon his release. Ultimately their parental rights were terminated and when the child was 3 the foster parents petitioned to adopt him.
But by age 4 CPS had decided that “family reunification” should take place even though the only biological family was the paternal grandmother in Mexico. The child had never met this woman nor did she even speak English! Equally alarming, the child is an American citizen. So CPS was prepared to remove this 4 year old from the only home he had ever known and violate his rights as an American citizen by sending him to Mexico to live in a cinder box house with an elderly stranger who couldn’t even speak his language. Furthermore, the father is a sex offender and where do you suppose he would go after being deported?
There was such public outrage over this case that CPS had to back down and allow the foster parents to adopt the child. This is an unusual case but it shows what poor judgment some of these social workers have who are given the responsibility to administer the law. We’ll see how well Texas CPS does with the family reunification act.
April 20, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Crank you rock !
That is awful about the Indian children I had no idea that happened.
So will the moms have show seperate residence and a job to get their kids backs? Are there even 150 apartments in that city they could rent?
Do you think the dad should just stay from DNA tests? The dads are going to be billed for child support for foster care and prosecuted for bigamy why should they give their DNA?
April 20, 2008 at 4:07 pm
Cary,
Where did I say that ALL FLDS men are rapists?
I didn’t.
If the wording of my post somehow implied that, I apologize. I do not think for a second that all FLDS men are rapists. I was referring to those cases in which sexual abuse is substantiated and the mothers are charged with “failure to protect”. These mothers are eligible for family reunification.
mom2oneson:
First, let me preface the following statement by saying that I neither advocate nor support the laws giving CPS the many of the powers they currently have. I even published a paper in an academic journal encouraging social workers to undermine CPS in a variety of ways. Having said that, let me address your question:
When there is an allegation of child abuse or neglect, CPS is LEGALLY mandated to investigate. Period. Now, I am not an attorney, so PLEASE do not take what I am about to say as gospel. I worked as a family reunification social worker at CPS, so I only investigated cases of abuse of children who were in relative foster care placements. This was a rare occurrence. I lived in an urban area, so we had to divide our agency into different units: Emergency Response Unit (these are the social workers who investigate initial allegations of abuse); Dependency Investigation Unit: if evidence of abuse was found by the ERU social worker, this social worker had to present the evidence to the court, place the child in foster care, among other duties. If the court finds that abuse did in fact take place, the case was then transferred to Family Reunification (in most cases). If family reunification failed, the case was transfered to the Adoptions Unit which pursued termination of parental rights and attempted to find a permanent placement for the child.
The above is just a summary….the process is much more complex, but I would have to write a whole book to explain it.
Now, having made my disclaimer, here are some things you can do should CPS come knocking at your door. Check your state laws before doing this, because this could vary state by state. Again, take this with a grain of salt. Heck, take it with all the salt in the Dead Sea:
If a CPS worker shows up at your house alone (and you are not already involved in the system, meaning your child has not already been removed), you have the right to ask for a warrant. They will probably not have one at that time, but if you refuse them access to your home they will certainly get one by the very next day. Also, if a mandated reporter (such as a teacher) makes a report to CPS that your kid shows signs of abuse, they do not have to get a warrant. They can interview the child at school without your consent.
Many people may wonder why I left CPS. I could write a book about that, but it boils down to this: Even though federal law prohibits termination of parental rights “due to reasons of poverty”, courts are routinely finding that CPS has made “reasonable efforts” to reunify the family even though nothing has been done to empower these families to get out of poverty. I had a client who was homeless and addicted to drugs. Her kids were removed, and I was assigned to be her family reunification worker. I had 12 months to help this mother get into drug treatment, attend parenting classes, find a job, find an apartment, among many other things. I lived in an area of the country where a cheap studio ran at least $1500.
This mother busted her a**. She stayed sober, and did everything the court ordered. But she could not find a place to live. I saw how hard she was working, so I requested a 6 month extension which was granted by the court. Still, it was impossible to find her a place to live. After that six months was up, I was legally required to recommend a hearing for the termination of her parental rights. I refused to do so. Instead, I went into court and told the judge that I had been a slacker (which was a lie…it is rare for me to encounter parents in the system who work as hard as this woman did) and had not made “reasonable efforts”. I got yelled at by the judge in front of a packed court room (profanity and all), but the judge had no choice but to give the mother another 6 months.
I eventually helped her find an affordable apartment, and I was ultimately able to recommend that she get her kids back.
Several months later, I was walking to a coffee shop near my office. Someone screamed out my name, and when I turned around, it was that mother. She ran up to me, hugged my neck and began sobbing. She thanked me for what I did for her, and we both cried.
That is why I became a social worker.
Sadly, her case is not typical. Many poor (and mostly black) families lose their children merely because they are poor. The court orders them to go to drug treatment, submit to random drug testing, attend parenting classes, receive individual psychotherapy, attend supervised visits with their kids, find a job, find a place to live, and all we give them are referrals and a bus pass.
I could not in good conscience be part of a system that (rightfully) tries to protect kids from abuse and neglect without providing the parents the resources they need to be successful in meeting the requirements for reunification. We were simply taking kids from poor black families and adopting them out to middle class white families. I think this is wrong.
Regardless of your political affiliation, if you believe that CPS should have the resources to family reunification its top priority as required by ASFA of 1997, then I implore you to write your congressperson and demand that the ASFA of 1997 be FUNDED.
If you are ideologically opposed to the existence of CPS, then please tell me how the following cases should be handled (and remember, not everyone is a church member nor do they have families that can help):
1) A family thinks it is funny to force their newborn to nurse from the family dog
2) A father forces his 13 year old daughter to prostitute herself
3) A mother gives her 4 year old cocaine
4) A mother allows her boyfriend to rape her teenage daughter and then throws the daughter out of the home because she is jealous of her daughter
5) A baby is born addicted to meth
6) A 9 year old boy has anal warts due to being repeatedly raped by his father
7) A mother punishes her child by forcing the child to eat dog feces while beating her with a belt.
I could go on and on. There are some cases that were so horrific that I cannot even mention them here, and even though I haven’t worked for CPS for almost 10 years, I still wake up in the middle of the night screaming.
To the person who thinks CPS workers are arrogant and power hungry, I will not deny that such people exist. Where I worked, one had to have a master’s degree to be a CPS worker. Yet I made more money delivering pizza in college. We do not go into this profession for prestige, power, or money.
April 20, 2008 at 4:27 pm
I’ve no problem with polygamy or any other consensual arrangement between adults, but when you have authoritarians (prophets) micromanaging family structure without consent, or condoning underage sexual partnering, I have no problem with the State getting involved. Yes, it’s sad that children have been separated from their parents, but the parents have aligned themselves with a corrupt system knowingly and now they suffer from their own poor decisions. Using religious belief as justification for child abuse is no excuse.
[edited--note, if you think this blog is a place to spew your anti-Mormon venom , think again.]
April 20, 2008 at 5:26 pm
“After that six months was up, I was legally required to recommend a hearing for the termination of her parental rights. I refused to do so.”
Good on you, PMC. This is why I always tell people that the overwhelming majority of CPS caseworkers are good, decent people being underpaid, understaffed and overworked to do an impossible job.
“Do you think the dad should just stay from DNA tests? The dads are going to be billed for child support for foster care and prosecuted for bigamy why should they give their DNA?”
And this brings up another point about the inheirant conflict between CPS cases and criminal cases. What is in the person’s best interest in a CPS case (full cooperation, usually) might not be in his best interest in a criminal prosecution. If I were representing the fathers in a criminal defense capacity, I would never in a million years let them submit to DNA tests until or unless they could assure me that their DNA wasn’t going to show up in a child born to an underage mother. This is why I no longer represent clients in both criminal and CPS matters at the same time. If I’m appointed on one by the court, I require the court to appoint another attorney on the other.
April 20, 2008 at 5:28 pm
We don’t have to agree with the FLDS / LDS / YFZ Compound, or any religion, or lifestyle, for that matter, to be appalled at the abuse of power by the State of Texas. This is a rampant disregard for civil liberties.
When my neighbor was falsely accused of child abuse, would that have made it okay for the police army to raid my home, as well as my neighbors? No.
The fact is, a thorough CPS investigation with audit and oversight could have been conducted without forcibly removing these families and traumatizing them. However, as you can see from the brief history included in my blog, several politicians were gunning for them in advance. The fact of the matter is, we are in an election year, and the statistics for child abuse, child neglect, and statutory rape are pretty high. Obviously, the politicians such as Attorney General Greg Abbott and State Representative Harvey Hildebran could have appeared to make a very large (albeit “fake”) dent in the numbers by hitting an entire community at once, and doing a ramrod job on the statistics. I have a short history on my blog:
http://deweynewz.blogspot.com/
However, speaking of child neglect, that was one of the original justifications for the warrant: that the place was unclean and the children were unsafe because of neglect. However, both the attorneys who have gone in, as well as law-enforcement officials from the raid have agreed the place is very neat and clean, very peaceful. Neighbors are helping neighbors. That certainly seems refreshing to me. I’ve lived in so many nice, suburban neighborhoods where neighbors don’t even know each other. I’ve lived in two upscale neighborhoods in which unheard of things were happening. My next door neighbors (who would never talk to us) were apparently running a crack house. Several homes down, a woman I never met or saw (but lived next to for years) killed herself in that home. I want to stress that these were not ghetto or inner city homes. These were nice, upscale, suburban neighborhoods in white collar communities.
And has been stated above, there is a high incident rate of abuse within the Texas welfare system. In fact, according to Greta Van Susteren, who interviewed Flora Jessop the other day, we are looking at maybe a 1% incident rate of abuse within this community, preliminarily.
I’d also like to point out that the legal age to marry with parental consent was recently 14. And it was that way for years. Representative Harvey Hildebran OPENLY BRAGS to having intentionally pushed to get that age moved up to 16 for the specific purpose of going after the FLDS. No wonder they keep to themselves!
By the way, the whole “legal marriage at age 16″ applies to just that, legal marriage, not religious. You can’t outlaw religious marriages, religious bigamy, or religious polygamy. Only having two or more honored marriage certificates in one or more states is actually a violation of the law. Most people don’t understand this, and that’s why the law and the media can so easily condemn “polygamists” as “criminals”.
For what it’s worth, even the ACLU is now involved.
And there is a petition, if you’re interested in signing it:
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/free-the-innocent-flds
April 20, 2008 at 7:27 pm
Guy, stephen m (ethesis) has contact info for a guardian ad litem who is looking for any LDS in Texas who want to volunteer for placement of some of the FLDS kids. I suggested he contact you about posting it here, but you might want to take the initiative if you would feel comfortable doing so.
April 20, 2008 at 8:36 pm
I’m curious — what do you mean about “her character”? I’m not familiar with her outside of watching this presentation:
http://fora.tv/2007/12/05/Carolyn_Jessop_on_her_Escape_from_the_FLDS
She seemed like a credible witness in that video. So, why shouldn’t I believe what she says? Is there more to her story that disqualifies her account?
April 20, 2008 at 8:45 pm
Just FYI, an ad litem called me this evening and I immediately posted about it:
http://ethesis.blogspot.com/2008/04/lds-families-needed-to-help-with-flds.html
April 20, 2008 at 9:21 pm
#80- most of the abuses you cite should be criminal cases- the offending parent goes to jail.
And your #7 example of abuse? Been there. My abuser (and I am not going to go into why and how, but it was worse than anything reported against FLDS and I was 8 years old), regularly beat us with belts and frequently rubbed dog feces on my younger brother’s face as punishment (he chose that method because it left no marks).
And he was a supervising social worker for the state of California up until just a couple years ago when he retired.
I once read a ‘confession’ by a CPS worker who became a mother years after she’d been working for CPS. It changed the way she looked at her work. She said she and her colleagues had often judged mothers who cried and carried on when they lost their children as emotional and hysterical, and mothers who remained calm, friendly, and civil dry eyed as more stable. Once she became a mother she realized she’d had NO idea what they were doing to the mothers and children and had basically judged most situations completely backward. It was very frightening to her, and even more disturbing when she found herself unable to get her colleagues to understand her new point of view.
In reading the summaries and quotes from testimony from CPS worker Voss, it’s clear that her issue is that people aren’t doing what she wants them to do, and she has a strong disdain for their beliefs (not practices, just beliefs).
I know there are kind, compassionate, dedicated CPS workers who don’t deserve to be tarred with this brush. But there are plenty of the other kind, too.
(I’m not using my name here because I’ve revealed more private information than I usually share on the internet)
April 20, 2008 at 9:22 pm
WillF, I have no way of judging Carolyn Jessop’s honesty – and I really do sympathize with her, but it is just a little more than odd timing that she would happen to mention the torture of babies ONLY after babies were taken away from their mothers in this case. That’s not exactly something she would have forgotten, and she apparently has never mentioned it in her book or in any other public appearance prior to this case. If that is not accurate, I will retract this, but I haven’t heard anything that says she was making this claim prior to the raid.
Again, if she is telling the truth, the men who did it should be castrated slowly without anesthesia – but the timing of the accusation is hard to accept.
April 20, 2008 at 11:18 pm
This FLDS incident has lead me to the conclusion that the government should stay the #$%#% out of peoples personal lives. Yes it is a tragedy when a child is abused and nobody will help but in the end. People who are good parents will raise wonderful successful children and bad parents will hopefully become extinct. I know of three sisters who will never have children because they disliked their upbringing so much.
Part of the problem of child abuse comes from economic stress not always of course. Maybe getting rid of the economic part would help fix the other part. Offering kids the option to move away from their parents of their own free will would also be nice.
I think most people want to be good parents because they instinctively know that their children are their future. Laws that tell people what to do are demeaning. Anyone dumb enough to kill their own child has done themselves a GREAT disservice.
Our society has been dumbed down and infantalized so much that people can hardly think for themselves. I’ll bet that if the
FLDS people had been all been shot dead the news media would come up with a good excuse for it. {they had WMDS !!!}
April 21, 2008 at 4:32 am
Guy, I must say that I’m with Ardis at this point. My sense of outrage remains but I just don’t have anything new to say. Nothing has surfaced as this has progressed that changes the analysis that the removal of the 400+ children was very wrong and constitutes a threatening precedent for all Americans.
Thanks for staying on top of this. I sense that it makes a difference.
PMC and TMI, those are horrible accounts. I am grateful that we have CPS to save abused children in those situations.
I haven’t seen any allegations of neglect in the FLDS case, and there have only been a few specific allegations of abuse, which could have been dealt with individually in the normal way, which could have included removing the perps and leaving children with their mothers.
Testimony that was given in the two day hearing establishes that Voss and others justify the removal of the children based on the beliefs of the FLDS rather than on evidence of actual abuse that has occurred to specific children.
Jailing the men for polygamy/bigamy would have been much more effective in stopping underaged marriages without causing pain to mothers and children of being separated from each other.
April 21, 2008 at 5:38 am
Guy-I have spent considerable time following the events in Texas, on major news media, local Texas and Utah newspapers, and internet searching of legislation and “talk show” coverage of FLDS over past several years.
The inconsistencies in the current situation are numerous, and many have been covered here.
What does seem to be consistent: the public perception of FLDS appears to have been created by a remarkably few individuals. Flora Jessop, Carolyn Jessop. Rebecca Musser. Rick Ross…
Having read through the San Angelo logs of two days of court testimony, based on that information, I did not find the testimony of Angie Voss of CPS convincing, and it appeared that the state’s Dr. Perry had no direct knowledge or interaction with the FLDS compound prior to current events.
I’m still waiting for real evidence that would justify the actions Texas has taken.
April 21, 2008 at 7:02 am
I would just like to add that the comment that the Australian government had been removing Aboriginal children “for their own good” until the election at the end of 07.
This not the case. Federal government does not make decisions about removal of children from their parents, state government does. The election at the end of 07 was a federal election and so had no bearing on the removal of children.
In my state (of Australia) there are very strict guidelines for the removal of ANY children, not just Indigenous children. And any Indigenous children removed are always placed with an Indigenous carer IF there is one available in a suitable location. There is an agency called VACCA which represents and advocated for Indigenous children in care and there is recent legislation (a few years old) that protects Indigenous children even more than before.
The racist oriented removal of Indigenous children has not happened for a long time in this country. Unfortunately it took until recently for the federal government to offer an apology for when it DID happen.
As a considered member of my local Indigenous community and a former foster care placement worker I felt the need to clarify the situation, at least as it is here in my state.
April 21, 2008 at 7:56 am
We can pick all we want about their crazy beliefs and judge them for their religion. Does that mean that we should destroy the entire catholic religion because of all the sexual abuse of priests to young children?
We have alot of newer religions out that worship stars how crazy is that.
What we need to look at here is due process. Our country was built on christianity and the freedom of religion. As for girls being forced into marriage under 18 years. No law has been broken if parents give their consent. At least as young as 16 years of age. We need to see if any of these marriages are even real marriages with an actual marriage liscence issued by the state because they aren’t then they are not legally married anyway and I would call these marriages either fornication or adultry in which no law broken for such behavior. Why would older men want to marry by personal choice little girls old enough to be their granddaughters? Were they forced into by Warren Jeffs and his evil ways of corruption?
I know that 3/4 of the human population would like to crush this religion and would do anything they could to make this happen. From everything I have read many laws were broken when CPS went into that compound and kidnapped the children. These are the freedoms that we enjoy living in this country and those of you who don’t think this. We will ship you off to one of these other countries that you have no freedoms (Cuba) and let you see what I am talking about. Unless CPS had a warrant issued by a judge before entering this compound they had no right going in. An anonymous phone call isn’t enought to give them the right to go in. (By the way they caught the person behind this phone call. This person is now in jail in Ohio.) If this phone call gave them the right to go into this compound then that gives me the right to call CPS on anyone and get their children taken from them. Then anyone can call CPS on me because they don’t like me and get my children taken away from me.
Lets address pregnant young girls. If this is a crime then we should be arresting all parents who have or had pregnant daughters under 16 years of age for their parents not being active in their childrens lives to know that their daughters are having sex and oops now she is pregnant. This is bogus. It has nothing to do with children being married underage and having sex. This is all about crushing an unpopular religion and these people’s beliefs.
April 21, 2008 at 7:59 am
I think the FBI should be called regarding this Kidnapping / Hate Crime it is in their Jurisdiction. If the feds are willing to overrule states when it comes to Marijuana for cancer patients then they should be able to over rule states with corrupt theocratic governments who want to steal and sell {adoption fees} these poor little kids. We should all contact the FBI and ask them why they are not enforcing kidnapping and all the other laws that have been broken. If they fail to act I’m afraid we are in worse trouble than we thought.
April 21, 2008 at 8:12 am
WHat have we done now is put 416 children into state custody taken them away from their loving environment and put them now in harms way of foster care. I know there are many good foster families How many of all the foster familes out are not good. What is going to happen to these children? some will be placed with really good and kind families and the rest will be placed with families who will abuse them both sexually and physically all in the name of protecting them from bein forced against their will into a marriage. Which has not been proven in a court of law that they are being forced to do anything against their will. CPS has now already traumatized them by taking them out of their homes away from their parents now they have put them into the hands of people who abuses children that are placed in their homes. Why are we sitting back and allowing this. They should take all the men out of the compound and put them into these shelters until they can prove which men are the known abusers and officially charge them for their crimes instead of putting these kids into the hands of strangers and risk them of being abused.
April 21, 2008 at 8:33 am
Elle, you are invited come to San Angelo and see the people you accuse of serious moral failure and “corruption” in action. Kevin Dinnin, president of BCFS, will personally give you a tour of the shelters and some insight into what BCFS is doing—on 16 hour shifts, seven days a week.
It has nothing to do with adoption. It has a lot to do with clean, safe places to sleep; meals acceptable to FLDS mores; recreational and education activities for children (only in academic areas approved by the mothers); and protecting the FLDS cultural and religious sensibilities in every way within our power.
Just like we cared for medical special needs evacuees we after Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, we are caring for the FLDS women and children because there is a need. Just like we care for Orthodox orphans in Moldova, Hindu, Muslim and Buddhist children in Sri Lanka, Indian children in the remote mountains of Mexico and AIDS orphans in Africa—no religious hoops to jump through, just needs we can meet.
To quote William Safire, we’re just the traffic cops, we didn’t paint the lines on the road. To quote Jesus, we are providing that cup of water in His name—with no strings attached.
With all the confusion and pain surrounding this sad event, it seems disrespectful of the very children you profess to champion to erecting straw men and throw stones at other targets who have nothing to do with the legal and procedural aspects of this.
April 21, 2008 at 9:15 am
Craig,
Did Jesus give someone a cup of water after taking it away from them?
We should all be very very cautious when someone uses Jesus as a justification or motivation for their actions.
I’m not sure how taking kids away from their families by armed force with machine guns, and then keep the families away from those kids, again by armed force with machine guns, gives you the moral high ground.
Ultimately this is coming down to an ends justifies the means argument. Regardless of how one feels about the religious views of the flds, many of us feel that the tactics involved here are unacceptable.
You on the other hand don’t seem to care what the tactics are as long as the appropriate end (to the flds view on polygamy) is met.
I’m amazed the families didn’t start shooting back at the people trying to steal their kids. It really shows who the aggressors are in this instance, because I can conceive of no clear purpose of self defense than defending your children from being taken by armed invaders.
To be clear, I have a hard time putting myself and my family in this situation without me responding with violent force to protect my kids. The only thing that could possibly restrain me would be the knowledge I’d die in a pretty senseless death, my kids would still be taken (or killed) and the aggressors would get to make themselves out as heroes.
April 21, 2008 at 11:06 am
I have to agree with you Steve.
I don’t agree with their practices but it doesn’t give our government to go in and take their children without due process. This boils down to an attack on freedom of religion and money.
Several years ago our government used armed force to go into another compound they took the family out by force and the husband went up in arms they killed his family in front of him. First they shot his wife right between the eyes while she was holding their 6 month old baby in her arms. When his son picked up his bags they shot him in the back. He was about 8 years old.
The husband was wounded and taken away. How many other people were shot and killed I don’t remember. You can search this case by the name of Randall Weaver in Northern Idaho. Lets not forget about what happened in Waco with the compound there.
April 21, 2008 at 12:23 pm
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_9002940
April 21, 2008 at 1:49 pm
I find it quite interesting that now they have found the 20-30 girls that they thought to have been thought to have been pregnant or have given birth to now be of legal adult age. Why hasn’t the judge ruled that no crime has officially been committed and require all children to be returned immediately. What is the hold up. Why aren’t these lawyers demanding the release of these children back to their homes to their families. This is unacceptable. Why are all of us christian people standing upand demanding the return of these children back to their families. It’s called political pressure.
April 21, 2008 at 2:52 pm
“This not the case. Federal government does not make decisions about removal of children from their parents, state government does. The election at the end of 07 was a federal election and so had no bearing on the removal of children”
I will gladly defer to someone who has closer information, however it was my understanding that the previous government was until very recently attempting to circumvent Aboriginal governments in the name of “preventing abuse.” Again, this is somewhat off-topic, but I don’t want to give the false impression that I’m an expert on Aboriginal affairs.
April 21, 2008 at 2:59 pm
I live in New York City Brooklyn.I am very familiar with the various Hassidic groups.They are Cults.Ive seen Hassidic Men kicked out of their homes by Judges
on allegations of physical mental abuse by their wives.
The power of the State is overwhelming.I may not like the Hassidic religious views or the FLDS.What
frightens me is the testimony of these FLDS mothers that they will leave their lifestyle become wards of the state in order to be with their children.Coercion? We are losing little by little our Bill of rights.Surely in any religious group their are pedophiles rapists.To take away over 400 children from their parrents based on hearsay,hysteria Legal gymnastics that would take years to unravel on appeal while the parrents lose their children into the pit of foster care and end their polygamous lifestyle is plain wrong.You and I will be next.Our families our children.Beware of the power of the State.April 19 over 80 people died needlessly because of the abuse by BATF and the FBI.Aprill 19 a madman detonated a huge Bomb murdering 168 innocent people.If CPS and the people behind them get away with this abuse we will all be coerced eventually and lose our freedoms.
John
April 21, 2008 at 5:42 pm
http://www.sltrib.com/faith/ci_9004942
You can’t work something out with breastfeeding, that is so absurd, let them stay with their mamas. You work something out with your teenager who is borrowing your car, this is a human child who needs it’s mother’s body to survive.
Are there any reports on how the boys are doing at the place they were sent to?
Why isn’t a big group stepping up to help these people?
April 21, 2008 at 6:16 pm
Can they bring in a lactation consultant to tell them that a disruption in nursing may prevent them from nursing again if reuinted? This is just supposed to be a temporary hearing.. Or tell the judge how the moms will get sick from sudden weaning? Or that exclusively breastfed babies won’t suck a bottle? Anyone should know a baby needs his mom, but maybe having a board certified lactation consultant with initials after her name speaking for them would help.
How can they apply for a protective order and it not be ruled on? Is that allowed?
April 21, 2008 at 6:51 pm
“How can they apply for a protective order and it not be ruled on? Is that allowed?”
Yes.
April 21, 2008 at 6:52 pm
“How can they apply for a protective order and it not be ruled on? Is that allowed?”
Yes.
April 21, 2008 at 7:27 pm
[...] disturbing pattern emerges here. In comments on another thread a practicing Texas Family Law attorney who goes by the handle The Local Crank (I will let him [...]
April 23, 2008 at 12:24 pm
I was kinda wondering if anyone knows if they found any WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION on the church grounds of the Fundamentalist Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints.Leave them be.Your tax dollars are hard at work in Texas.
April 23, 2008 at 1:28 pm
10 million illegals in this country and they are on welfare getting money and food stamps attending our schools and are on our health programs and i see some jerk talking about flds members on welfare good for them i served my country twice so they would have the right to do so and also to have the right of freedom of religion.They call both groups a cult i call them brothers and sisters who worship god.They found a black women who likes to makeup storys and make phone calls so now the state of Texas has to prove they are not wrong and makeup more lies about these people.What’s next the Amish maybe the Jehovah’s Witnesses.Their is a case here in missouri where a preacher of the baptist faith is being put on trial for molesting the children of his church for 10 years i dont see them being rounded up.Its sad when i watch tv and see state,local and fed goverment trusted servants of the people being charged with sex crimes againest children and they are slapped on the hand for this. A country who sets child molesters free to rome our streets.DONT MESS WITH TEXAS WELL I WILL CHANGE IT TO DONT MESS WITH OUR CHILDREN. FOR ONE THEY ARE NOT YOUR CHILDREN YOU GOT YOUR 15 SECONDS OF SHAME.Did it make you feel good inside to see men,women and children cry jerk.Bet you was a sissy in school you big tough politician from Texas you make a joke like that.Bet your all sad you didnt get to burn them out and kill their kids.This is an ATTACK [edited]
April 23, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Hey i’m sorry to hear about your dad passing on.
April 23, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Pulling knifes on these young men on their missions come on up to missouri and pul that on me i aint wittled on noone in awhile.Bet you voted for that sissy from Texas.You two hold hands i bet.Now i have said what i have to say here thank you.My respects to both groups your founders are with god now and are watching from heaven.
April 24, 2008 at 1:01 pm
[...] Your children will become wards of the state and shipped to group home gulags with a history of abuse and murder. Parents are then prohibited from seeing their children and despite petition from attorneys, are deni…. [...]
April 24, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Thank you steven for your coments. I personly Know alot of former FLDS men and women and they said they were happy and not abused.
April 25, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I am appalled at the way this has been handled. I am no fan of CPS. I have seen them do nothing in a case of a 3 year old being raped by her father, and then tear children out the arms of a mother and father bringing their children in for stitches when they fall and cut themselves. That said in cases of real abuse there needs to be a method for protecting children.
IF and I say IF their is real abuse happening then the abusers need to be removed. However the type of “abuse” that has been reported is barely outside the realm of everyday teenage life. However 13 month old infants are not likely to be married off. This is an outrage. Nursing infants even older than 12 months need their mommies.
Not liking a communities religion and disliking them is not a reason to remove ALL the children from their parents. People live in all sorts of lifestyles, and the state does not get to decide which ones get to keep their kids.
This is a complete abortion of justice and the children should be returned immediatly!!
April 26, 2008 at 7:56 am
If child abuse is suspect, then of course some action must be taken. The state in this case has however overstepped its bounds, and it is very evident from the proceedings that the allegations of child abuse are just a smoke screen for the ulterior motives of disrupting the FLDS organization. If the state is really concerned with protecting the children from underage marriage of girls to older men, why can’t the mothers stay with the children? This case is very upsetting and honestly makes me question the legitimacy of our government and law enforcement. This is eerie parallel to what happened in Iraq. Acting on presumptions without actual evidence to back you up sure leads to a huge mess. We should probably think thrice before electing anyone from Texas again and should reconsider letting them secede from the union.
April 26, 2008 at 8:39 am
Christie,
Let’s put together an official documented list of all of the CPS failures, such as the very frightening ones you mentioned above, and let’s get it out there for the public to see.
Your comments can not be more accurate and I can not sit still and watch the authorities abuse their power. And they say the YFZ was an “authoritarian” environment.
April 26, 2008 at 9:14 am
The REAL (and very low) Number regarding teen pregnancy at the compound:
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9056589
April 27, 2008 at 8:09 am
Ben Stein tells it like it is!
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/27/sunday/main4048476.shtml
April 27, 2008 at 3:55 pm
It is official.
There are just three girls under the age of 18 that the state thinks may be pregnant from FLDS.
One will be 18 years old in a month, one refused to take a pregnancy test and one whose age is yet to be determined.
Among many references to this account: The Salt Lake Tribune 04/26/2008 05:14:10 PM MDT
Bingo, no abuse, no arrests, no adults detained, no underage pregnancies. (By Texas law, underage is “under 16″).
But the State is still refusing to release the kids. Two children under two years of age are now missing by the State of Texas’s own admission! (Though I am sure some logical explanation will come up) Three or more little children are hospitalized as of Friday; one is in critical condition because he is an infant that could not adjust without his mother’s milk. CPS admits that many have contracted chicken pox, measles, diarrhea, flu, viruses and other diseases they were not inoculated for now that they are exposed to the “mainstream” and are blaming it on the parents. And of course, as we all now know, (providing you have some education on the subject), the State of Texas has now concluded that the original call was a hoax.
Those of you who judged and made accusations should hope someone other than a person like yourself is around to defend you if you have the misfortune of having your life torn apart if someone takes your children taken away.
Tragic.
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9056589
May 21, 2008 at 10:04 pm
I have read this blog from start to finish…I don’t even know how I got here. I have lived in Texas over 35 years, and frankly, it’s embarrassing considering the wonderful press we get. Don’t Mess with Texas!?!?! Hideous. The FLDS men are free while the FLDS children suffer.
I’m not sure what the answer is, and no solution is perfect or pretty. I’m not a fan of so called prophets or polygamy or robotic women and “stay sweet” mottos. HOWEVER, taking 400+ children away from their mothers is beyond cruel and unusual. It’s totally unbelievable. How the courts defend this position is surreal. The YFZ Ranch will never be the same and irreparable damage has been done. All the finger pointing and allegations are distracting from the Main Issue here which is: What is Best for the Children? The idea of not knowing one’s own birthday, one’s age, one’s family, the idea that there is inevitable inbreeding, etc is gross to me. But what I feel or think about the little I know of the FLDS practices doesn’t matter at all. And what the authorities in Texas government feel doesn’t matter. What matters is that these kids are loved and cared for- they are clean and nourished- they are healthy and do not appear to be neglected. They belong with their mothers unless they choose to leave the Ranch. The idea of older men marrying young girls is utterly repulsive to me- Disgusting and Creepy. And it needs to stop. The girls should be protected from that. But
the greater issue is that of human and civil rights that are tacit and expected in America. The child abuse that rages in this country is not comprehensible. How anyone hurts a child – I don’t get it. And Texas has hurt these children. Damaged them. What can we do? I have discussed becoming a foster parent to some of these children because my heart aches and we’ve got the means to care for them as well as our own two kids. But I’m scared. I’m afraid of what everyone is afraid of. What happens next?
Foster parents are not your typical mom and dad next door. They take in children for payment, knowing they are not fully accountable for the childrens’ well being or future. The CPS is a broken machine and the child gets lost in the paperwork. If all of us could open our doors and hearts to needy kids, wouldn’t it make a difference? But we’re scared. Scared to expose our kids to a child in need, like adopting a badly beaten dog into your household of three happy loved dogs. We don’t want to mess up our little nests.
CPS had to investigate. They had to answer the call- but taking the kids and not returning them to mothers, even NOW is a crime. Infants??? For the love of God, return the children to their homes. Deal with the fathers. Deal with the law. Find another way to address our concerns and fears of the FLDS, but do not take the children. Does this precedent mean that all children born at the Ranch will be taken? That no child be “left behind” at YFZ??
What happens next?
Thank you all for obliging me my rants. I’m furious and frightened by what is happening. I don’t know the solution, but I know the first step: let the kids go home.
May 22, 2008 at 11:01 am
Gem,
Thank you for being reasonable and understanding. Even today (5/22), CPS tried to reenter the YFZ Ranch because they heard of yet more children there. They didn’t have a warrant this time, so they weren’t permitted in.
One report I read said that some FLDS people were visiting the Ranch from other states and had children with them, which children surely would have been taken had CPS been allowed in! This now means that any FLDS family visiting (perhaps to attend a temple session) better never bring children along!
I have a son-in-law (with one wife of similar age) whose family belongs to the FLDS faith. They are wonderful, loving and caring parents of 7 children. Yet they better not take a vacation to the YFZ Ranch!
May 29, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Local Crank: “it was my understanding that the previous government was until very recently attempting to circumvent Aboriginal governments in the name of “preventing abuse.””
It’s a bit more complicated than that. The previous (federal) government was in full election mode and tanking in the polls. They decided to pull a rabbit out of the hat by invoking federal power in an Australia’s Northern Territory (which is not a State, and therefore has no constitutional protection from federal intervention)), purportedly for the purpose of protecting indigenous children at risk.
There is no doubt that the level of child abuse in some indigenous communities – many of which live in Third World conditions or worse – was extremely high, and the Northern Territory Government had recently commissioned a report which made numerous recommendations to address the problems.
Completely bypassing all the recommendations of this report, the Federal Government invoked emergency powers intervening directly with troops, police and social workers. While this was quite popular at the time (and elements of this intervention continue even under the new government), it soon became obvious that what it really was, apart from a populist vote grabbing measure, was a massive land grab.
In effect, hard earned Indigenous ownership of most of this land was effectively removed at the time, and probably would have remained so had the government been re-elected.
Prior to this “humanitarian” intervention, the previous federal government had been instrumental in dismantling representative indigenous bodies, and had “mainstreamed” (abolished) many indigenously targeted programs.
June 3, 2008 at 5:34 am
There is a compound FULL of Child Molesters and One Might Possibly ;Imagine that any child might be excluded from their abuse and molestations ; Is someone Intoxicated beyond Reasoning ? Or does STUPIDITY (which there is no cure for) Prevail ? Pregnate Twelve Year Olds ; that in it`s Self is ILLEGAL ! Judge !! Hello Wake UP ; Just think it may be hell on earth ; Only God Knows ? You are expected by the Entire world to Make Knowledgeable Moral Decisions !! Yes Knowledgeable and Moral Decisions !Sending 400 + Children back to Lustfull Child Molesters!Decisions Resembles one being part of the Problem . Not the solutions . P L E A S E ; Prosecute these Offenders .
June 4, 2008 at 10:32 pm
FLDS Members, you need to unite as quickly as possible, vote in your own mayor, town council, sheriff, police force, and take over the entire town.
Raise taxes on the people who slandered you to rates which are absolutely sky high and then claim eminent domain, which is totaly legal and then seize all the town peoples property.
Once you have done that, you can force your way into the State house with your own representative. Beat them at their own game. File for matching federal funds and sue the hell out of the State.
Declare your own highways, parks, reserves, airspace, mineral rights and rename the entire town and county. Screw them royal.
You have the power of the vote and have the majority of the population in the County.
God Bless you.
January 28, 2010 at 7:35 pm
I was thinking about trying the new no-no hair removal system. Has anyone tried this yet? I am considering this as a good long term solution to hair removal..I read somewhere that nono works good if you are patient and allow it to do its thing I’m not really to much concerned with time. I just don’t want to burn twenty bucks shipping and handling on their free trial if someone has already tested the product and it’s not very good. Thank you so much to everyone who answers