This will be a rather short post, but the topic, I think is important, and worth mentioning. I’ve posted numerous times on the problematic legal and Constitutional issues resulting from Texas’ raid on the FLDS community; however, I think the bad public policy behind this fiasco now emerges:
(Update) NPR’s Nation Today (Hat Tip mmiles)
FLDS The Victim That Wasn’t John T. Floyd, Huston Criminal Lawyer Hat Tip William)
Following the Precedent (By Tracy M over at BCC–absolutely spot on!)
The Salt Lake Tribune reports of some of the FLDS children, after removal from their families and homes are now being hospitalized:
At least three children taken from a polygamous sect’s ranch are in the hospital and attorneys for their mothers say they have received little or no information about their conditions.
Attorneys for Texas RioGrande Legal Aid (TRLA) are working to identify the children, the hospitals, and to arrange for their mothers to visit the children.
“We can’t seem to get anyone on the phone with authority to make that happen and the mothers don’t even know the seriousness of the situation,” said Amanda Chisholm, a TRLA attorney.
The legal aid society, which represents 48 mothers, said one 2-year-old child lost a severe amount of weight while staying at the San Angelo Coliseum.
TRLA said the organization was told two days ago that the child was in shock and lethargic, but has received no new information since then about where the child is or regarding her current health situation.
The mother is not being allowed to be with this child or her other nursing children, Chisholm said.
“We don’t seem to be able to get in touch with anyone who can tell us,” she said. The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said Friday that one child had been hospitalized because of dehydration. Attempts today to contact CPS authorities were unsuccessful.
Of course, I don’t speak for Utah or Arizona; but, this type of easily foreseeable result could very well be one of the reasons Utah and Arizona do not make the same ill conceived public policy decisions Texas made of literally throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Of course, Texas, in its continuing brilliant execution of this debacle, still keeps the mothers and children apart–even those now lying seriously ill in the hospital. What will it take to illuminate the poor public policy implications to Texas officials? Do one or more of these children have to die?
The Deseret News is also reporting the possibility of two lost children, supposedly in state custody:
SAN ANGELO, Texas — As children from the Fundamentalist LDS Church settled into new foster homes this weekend, the whereabouts of two young boys remains uncertain.
Child welfare workers in Texas say they’re not worried. But the mother of the boys and attorneys representing the mothers are not sure whether they should be or not.
“We just don’t know where they are,” Cynthia Martinez told the Deseret News Saturday.
Martinez, the communications director for Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, which represents 48 FLDS mothers, said they had information on where the boys were supposed to be taken but can’t confirm anything to emotional parents. It’s indicative, she said, of the fear and confusion the parents of the 467 children taken from the YFZ Ranch continue to feel.
Meanwhile, an FLDS member sent a letter to the governor of Texas on Saturday, accusing child welfare officials of “some of the most horrific violations of human rights that have ever been allowed on American soil.”
It’s pretty clear Texas is not worried about these children. That was evident in the way they have been treated since being forcibly removed at gun point from their homes and families. Yet, the cavalier attitude of these child welfare workers is to say the least obnoxious.
Finally, this troubling article from USA today about another FLDS community in South Dakota, now under that state’s scrutiny:
PRINGLE, S.D. — Just down the dirt road that passes Cookie Hickstein’s home, an isolated group of neighbors has drawn intense interest here in the sparsely populated Black Hills.The Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS) has put roots on 140 acres of rugged territory. It is the same sect as at the ranch near Eldorado, Texas, where the practice of men taking multiple wives and allegations of sexual abuse of underage girls have sparked a custody battle over more than 400 children.
No such allegations have been made here, but local police worry about whether they can do their job when many of the people in their jurisdiction live in a closed, secretive society.
“It’s difficult,” Custer County Sheriff Rick Wheeler says. “They don’t just open their doors. It’s a locked-down operation, a locked fence. … I don’t get precise answers, and yes, that concerns me.”
South Dakota is among a handful of states where the FLDS has set up polygamist compounds. The others are in Colorado, Utah, Arizona, Nevada and Texas, and in the Canadian province of British Columbia.
No reports of complaints
Hickstein and other locals were suspicious of the outsiders, who kept to themselves and made it clear with fences and an observation tower that they wanted to be left alone. Sheriff Wheeler is aware of the allegations against the group in Texas, but he says absent complaints or a legal reason to search the compound here, the sect members have a right to privacy.
“It is a delicate balance,” says Custer County State’s Attorney Tracy Kelley. “We need to treat them like we would any other citizen in our county. If we get a valid complaint, then law enforcement authorities with the sheriff’s office would investigate that.”
Sara Rabem, spokeswoman for South Dakota Attorney General Larry Long, says Long “cannot confirm or deny whether there’s an investigation” of the sect in Pringle.
“We haven’t raided the Pringle compound or received any criminal complaint or report of criminal activity,” she says. “It’s something that obviously everyone is watching kind of closely.”
No one for the FLDS or its South Dakota settlement could be reached for comment. Two lawyers for the sect, Rodney Parker of Salt Lake City and Gerald Goldstein of Houston, did not return telephone calls. A visit to the compound found the gate locked and no one to talk to.
Hickstein is uneasy but can’t say exactly why.
“They’re not bad neighbors. I just can’t condone what’s going on in there,” she says.
So, where do we go from here. Just to be safe, since according to Texas officials there is systemic widespread child abuse rampant in the FLDS culture by virtue of their religious belief, should South Dakota compound this problem, perpetuate Texas’ poor public policy position? Should South Dakota raid this FLDS community simply because of unfounded rumor and speculation? There haven’t been any complaints. Still, there are those pesky allegations in Texas–the vast majority of which appear to be untrue.
The sacrifice of fundamental constitutional rights upon the altar of poor public policy should scare all rational thinking Americans–whether they belong to popular main stream religious communities or not. The reverberation of this story across this country will be something to behold.
A couple of other posts worth reading:
MSM Meets FLDS (Dave’s Mormon Inquiry)
A Diabolical High Pressure Marriage (Kevin Barney at BCC)
Raid on FLDS should raise alarms (Statesman Journal Op Ed)
NPR Interviews: NPR recently conducted two interviews, one with an FLDS mother who lived at the Texas Ranch. The other with a CPS official. Have a listen and feel free to comment on the public policy implications of what we are hearing.
Where’s The Evidence of Abuse (Dallas Morning News Op Ed–Hat Tip John F)
Messenger and Advocate 
April 27, 2008 at 9:29 pm
I have nothing to add, Guy, but want you to know that your reports are still being read and appreciated.
April 27, 2008 at 9:57 pm
When did the number bump up to 467? This is starting to look like it is going to be a real catastrophe.
April 27, 2008 at 10:35 pm
It already is a real catastrophe. Thanks for your report.
April 27, 2008 at 10:47 pm
All they had to do was leave the kids under 10 with the moms. Leave the moms at their homes with the kids. Allow the lawyers to actually meat with the kids and see evidence. i.e. do what they were supposed to do.
I think there’s a lot of evidence that at least some people deserve charges and perhaps some kids taken away. But everyone? Without evidence?
There was absolutely zero need for this to go the way the judge put it. It’s a mess and I hope they hold these people accountable.
April 28, 2008 at 3:38 am
Thank you for these updates, Guy. I wish they could return the children and mothers to the compound and take the men away. Haven’t many of the men already volunteered to do this? Are the mothers in particular being accused of abuse?
April 28, 2008 at 4:02 am
We who Blog here at the Messenger and Advocate seek to exemplify the highest principles consistent with the Gospel of Jesus Christ
Really. You are forgetting child abuse, molestation and polygamy were the original problems here, not the state governments response. All are illegal. I agree a government sponsored program is not a the best place for a child. It is far, far superior than living with some 77 year old male weirdo, telling them they are bad if they don’t do as he says.
Any problems you have with the situation should be with the father or parents if possible. You should be embarrassed by almost any other response.
April 28, 2008 at 4:37 am
madmonq,
No one at this blog has condoned polygamy, child abuse, or underaged marriages.
Guy and others at this blog are raising their voices against the violations of due process that have occurred and that are continuing as this story gets worse and worse every day.
In other words, Guy and others here are raising their voices in your defense as much as in defense of the constitutional and civil rights of the FLDS. This is because our constitutional and civil rights protect all Americans, no matter how repugnant their religious views are to you. This approach gives you security in your beliefs to the same extent it is supposed to give the FLDS security in their beliefs.
In responding to the allegations of abuse made by the 16 year old caller, Texas CPS should have removed her and perhaps her siblings, at most, from the ranch. Or the Texas CPS could have removed the alleged perpetrators of abuse. There was no legal basis under Texas statutes or the Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution to remove all of the children from the ranch.
None of the children showed signs of neglect. Testimony elicited during cross-examination at the two-day circus hearing revealed that neither the actual CPS official, Ms. Voss, who made the decision to remove the children, nor the psychologist consulted as an expert witness for the state (who had no real knowledge about the FLDS aside from information learned in the media and from a former member) thought that any of the children faced a threat of imminent harm, which is the threshhold required to remove children from their homes. Also, Ms. Voss testified under cross-examination that her decision to remove the children was based on her belief that the FLDS beliefs created an environment in which boys were raised to be perpetrators and girls raised to be victims of sexual practices that are against the law (polygamy/bigamy). In other words, Ms. Voss made a substantive decision about the religious beliefs of a particular group of people and removed all of their children from them based on that decision.
If the state is allowed to make this kind of evaluation — that a belief system has the potential to cause some people to become abuse victims years down the road — as a basis for removing children and refusing mothers contact with those children, then this should be a serious concern for all Americans because we should not want the government making substantive evaluations of the health of our religious beliefs as a basis for removing your children from your home, even entirely absent signs of neglect or abuse.
The potential for future abuse as a result of certain religious beliefs is not actual, imminent abuse required to remove children from their homes.
It is difficult to see why you and others do not seem to understand this principle.
April 28, 2008 at 4:56 am
Thanks so much for your reports. I have you on my blogroll at http://www.flds.ws. If you’d have an interest in cross posting this information over there, I’d be very happy. You’re doing a wonderful service.
Keep it up!
April 28, 2008 at 5:23 am
Amen, John F.
April 28, 2008 at 6:18 am
What surprises me is that this issue has not created as much an uproar as the agregious wrongs committed against human rights have warranted.
I look forward to more posts on this issue.
April 28, 2008 at 7:06 am
I agree with BiV. Let the women and children go home and ship the men out. If FLDS children die while in the care of Texas CPS, public opinion will turn against them and they’ll face overwhelming pressure to return the children to their mothers. What a horrible tragedy.
I also now agree with john f. and others (including Guy!) that Texas has egregiously violated the basic human rights of these women and children. I wish I could move to Texas for a few months and help these women get their children back.
April 28, 2008 at 7:20 am
Which of the Mamas are crying for the children. Everytime I see them they look like they are from the movie “The Night of the Living Dead.” Get real, finally the BS is being exposed. [edited] welfare fraud, millionaires are being shown for their true mind [edited] ways. The [edited] of control, sick dead old white men, finally exposed!!!
[admin note to nearlynormalized-Your comments are welcome here; however, we prefer to engage in discussion based on rational thought process, rather than just calling other people names]
April 28, 2008 at 7:35 am
#12 is a perfect example of why Texas has been allowed to trample on constitutional rights. Those who know no personal persecution are those who condone it most easily – and who apparently don’t bother to read all of the comments.
That’s just sad.
April 28, 2008 at 7:56 am
Constitutionl right? Is it a religion or a cult? What is the difference between the FLDS and the folowers of the Reverend Moon? Rational thought, you mean to tell me the FLDS main man JEFFS has rational thoughts, get real!!!
April 28, 2008 at 8:25 am
#14 – Please read the entire post (and former ones) and the comments before you post. Nobody here has defended Jeffs or underage marriage or sexual abuse of minors. NOBODY. It is the way CPS is handling the case that concerns us.
April 28, 2008 at 8:38 am
How do you want the CPS to handle the situation? Are the mothers really concerned about the children, or are they afraid of the behind the scenes reprimand from the Daddy’s? Anyway it was done was going to be offensive to many, but less are being hurt with the way it is being done. Mothers, or production line baby producers?
April 28, 2008 at 8:47 am
well. if we’re going to be completely honest here…
1) no rational person believes this is a simple case of due process violation. A rational person would realize they were just trying to justify their point of view by trying to scream louder than the crime committed.
2) Law enforcement and the welfare system had reason to move in at almost any time because 1)Polygamy is illegal 2)It is a known fact underage marriage to their elderly relatives (not in all cases) is almost expected within and without that society. Both exist at the extremes of American society.
3)none of the above is covered under religious or any other kind of freedom guarenteed by our goverment. None of this occured “down the road”. Most of it was recent or inprogress.
Your defense of screaming injustice over the crimes done within that group is laughable. Your attempts at downplaying the severity of the accused known behavior is outrageous.
The fact that they were allowed to coexist for as long as they did demonstrates the very opposite of what you claim. An attempt at tolerating extreme behavior under the claim of divine right.
The only recent group I know of that uses the combination of claims of religious intolerance/constitutional violations in order to allow abuse and crime to continue have been the extreme muslim sects. These laws weren’t meant to protect this kind of behavior from societal sanctions.
April 28, 2008 at 8:49 am
“Anyway it was done was going to be offensive to many, but less are being hurt with the way it is being done.”
Less are being hurt this way than taking the men into custody and leaving the women and children (the alleged victims) at home? Less are being hurt this way than allowing nursing mothers to feed their babies? There are, at the VERY least, 467 people being hurt this way. 467!! There is no way to hurt MORE than this way.
April 28, 2008 at 8:51 am
nearlynormalized, that might sound fine as long as it is in the FLDS that the Texas CPS is judging as having a belief system that has the potential to cause abuse and removing all of their children from them on that basis, but what happens when they scrutinize your belief system and find it lacking in some way or another and come for your kids? At that point, do you want people who have sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States to stand up for your rights to believe whatever you want and to teach those beliefs to your kids, or do you want them to kick you while you are down like the Governor of Texas and his Attorney General?
April 28, 2008 at 8:55 am
#17 – *sigh* Nobody is arguing that illegal actions should be allowed. NOBODY! We simply are saying that EVERYTHING that has come out of the investigation so far makes is appear that the initial call was bogus, the teen pregnancy rate for this group is actually LOWER than the Texas statewide rate (and significantly lower than the inner-city rate), there now are children in hospitals and missing because of the way this was handled, etc, etc, etc.
We aren’t saying overlook lawbreaking; we are saying don’t apply a double standard, follow basic constitutional principles and, at the very least, make sure you aren’t punishing ALL women and children for what you claim the MEN are doing.
April 28, 2008 at 9:12 am
This whole thing scares me. If the flds people committed crimes, then charge them of those crimes and follow the process of law.
If not, leave them alone.
At some risk, I might ask what might happen if some state were to take away any Muslim child out of fear that the child might be taught to be a terrorist or used as a suicide bomber. So then the state decides to take all Muslim children away from their parents. This is of course stupid and very unconstitutional. But how is it that different?
Why are we not seeing similar outrage?
April 28, 2008 at 9:21 am
or if a court in MA took away Baptist kids from their parents because they considered teaching against homosexuality to inevitably lead to discrimination and hate crimes?
Anyone who sexually abuses a minor should be castrated without the benefit of anesthesia (OK, not quite that cruel, but . . .), but this is simply frightening.
April 28, 2008 at 9:22 am
Why is not the question? We have informants inside the Muslim community, can we get informants inside the FLDS strongholds? Please any outsiders are scorned upon,and evil looks are thrown their way; even when you just have a bite to eat that their so called “public diner.” This is fun, it takes away from the major problems that concern our country, like we are falling appart at the seams; WAR is a family matter and we are beig distracted by the FLDS matter. How long has this been goin on?
April 28, 2008 at 9:33 am
nearlymormalized, madmonq,
Have either of you actually read what you’re saying? You advocate the lack of civil rights to a group of people (maybe two: nn, I can’t tell if you’re in favor of the wholesale removal of civil liberties for Muslims and the FLDS or just one or the other group).
As for religious groups that have claimed religious intolerance/constitutional violations, I can point to the Santeria, the Amish, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, various Jewish groups. Catholic Charities in California. The followers of Summum. Seventh Day Adventists. And that’s just off the top of my head, and most of the relevant court cases I’m thinking of regarding these groups are from, say, the last two decades. FWIW.
April 28, 2008 at 9:45 am
It seems to me that the analogous situation is African Muslim immigrants. And there getting ‘informers’ isn’t always easy in the community. There is a considerable amount of underage marriage, polygamy and abuse in that community.
The analogous situation would be for the police in all areas where insular African immigrants live, take away their children, do a single en mass hearing and ship them off to foster care.
Don’t get me wrong. I’ve no love for FLDS. Clearly there is systematic abuse in that community. But the way Texas has handled it seems to treat everyone the same which is the exact opposite of American due process. Second it is based upon a huge double standard. This kind of process simply isn’t done in other communities where it is arguably worse. Further it is not at all clear that this is better for the children at all. Worse there is a legitimate worry that this will simply drive the FLDS further underground making reform and prosicution elsewhere that much harder.
As I said, we could have prosecuted the members of the community who were guilty, gotten information, and secured the children without doing all this. As the initial hearing was going on I had confidence this was what would happen.
What’s sad to me is that folks seem to be saying, “well this is bad, so damn the constitution and let’s not worry about future consequences.” That rarely works. (Look at the parallels to the initial invasion of Iraq – even if you thought the invasion was a good idea you have to admit that the cavalier way it was handled made things worse not better)
April 28, 2008 at 9:47 am
Hey, play with the words, $’s buy you freedom and if you hang in long enough whatever you do becomes real. Lack of civil rights, hey we are BSing with this blog,and personally I don’t think the FLDS is a religion, it is in my view a cult. I said before hang out long enough, make some $’s, donate, and hey reality is a bonifed “RELIGION” I am rambling on some good coffee, so don’t give be the “civil rights” crap, when the child molesters are the main big Daddy’s of the FLDS. You get real and face up to the fact, white, old men rule and call it “religion”, when in fact they are the pedophiles best friend.
April 28, 2008 at 9:55 am
Well, if I had to choose between the FLDS classroom and whatever system gave nearlynormalized its writing skills …
April 28, 2008 at 9:56 am
Everyone — it is clear that “nearlynormalized” is a troll who is not interested in discussing the implications of Texas’ actions for constitutional rights protected by the Bill of Rights and for civil rights that are derivative of the inalienable rights listed in the Declaration of Independence.
Commenters have repeatedly told nearlynormalized that no one here is defending the FLDS beliefs or practices but rather the rule of law, the due process of law, and the First Amendment (and the intersection of those three in this case).
April 28, 2008 at 10:04 am
You are right, John F. I have determined to stop feeding the troll.
April 28, 2008 at 10:46 am
lds has been [edited] since it started. When one proudly shows off their unique lifestyle((wives+) somebody is eventually gonna “get it.”i.e. they have sex with their own kids,cousins,everyone is fair game.
I just wonder what took texas so long…
Those parents KNEW they were doing wrong and it just caught up with them.
April 28, 2008 at 10:51 am
re # 30, assuming everyone agrees with you that the FLDS were doing something bad to some of their children, then that side of this issue can be put aside.
What is your view then about due process of law that is required by the Constitution?
April 28, 2008 at 10:55 am
I have been, and remain, quite critical of the state for not following their own laws regarding timely individual hearings.
However, CPS now claims 55 (5 original, 25 reclassified, then 25 more reclassified) girls under 18 with a child or pregnant. This would not include “spiritually married” girls that are sexually active but not pregnant. (Contrast that to reportedly 60 married men on the ranch)
Wow! That would be a statistically widespread, bad situation that could constitute “immediate danger” to the whole closed community.
But, both the state and CPS continue to stall rather than present facts to back up their claims. Now the appellate court is stalling. Follow the law Texas! prove your case or return the children. It has now been three weeks since the children were removed at gun point, still no specific proof of abuse or individual hearings.
April 28, 2008 at 11:05 am
Due process–let’s [edited] call it as it is–play ACLU with lawyers, my writing skills are not what is at the heart of this matter. Old, white men and their game of power; then hide behind the woman whom they have [edited] for generations, then throw the boys out of the way because they will compete [edited]
{admin note–OK, I’ve asked nicely once that you interact with some modicum of decency and rational thought process. You don’t seem interested. I’m tired of editing you, and at the moment don’t have time. So, if you can’t engage in meaningful discussion, go elsewhere, or start your own blog.}
April 28, 2008 at 11:33 am
If the age of consent is 16 though then that statistic isn’t informative unless we know how many were sexually active (1) earlier than the legal age of consent at the time in question. (Remember Texas changed the age only a couple of years ago)
April 28, 2008 at 11:35 am
Just to add, I’m not doubting that there are illegal relations. Those who have been reading M&A for a while note that I brought up that there is considerable circumstantial evidence to believe there is a lot of abuse by the FLDS. That’s why I think Texas was right to enter the compound and to having hearings. It was the judge’s decision to take away all children that seems inexplicable to me. Ditto for not allowing lawyers sufficient access to evidence or to even see their clients.
April 28, 2008 at 11:43 am
Although, I do not adhere to the FLDS teachings, I have grave concerns on how Texas has taken these children, along with the Baptist’s role.
Why? See data – this fact is virtually absent from media reports:
Governor Rick Perry called on “Baptists Child and Family Services” a “humanitarian nonprofit” to command and control the mass shelters now holding the FLDS children. I am experienced in FEMA emergency management, so I now what this means. I reported this to Matt Drudge (Drudge Report) this am; and although, he has not posted anything on it (there are virtually no articles to post), now the Baptist’s page has gone ‘under construction.’ Their main page is still up.
In addition, this Baptist org. offers “foster care and ADOPTION” service too. The state of TX ‘outsources’ CPS foster/adoption programs. Are the Baptist vendors? Will this ’service’ Baptist organization get these children to foster out too? Yes, read on.
http://www.bcfs.net/NetCommunity/Page.aspx?pid=581&srcid=183
Baptist history of sexual abuse: According to the Dallas Morning News, Christa Brown of Austin, has helped the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) to extend its work to victims of Baptist clergy. The baptist convention has long kept a secret confidential list of pastors believed to have engaged in homosexual relationships or sexual misconduct including adultery or pornography addiction. Pastors can get on the list through a conviction or, in the case of noncriminal activity, a confession or a report from a church.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/religion/stories/060607dnmetbaptistabuse.3748e50.html
Ref. web page by an attorney endured Baptist abuses for years: http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org
UPDATE: The original web page showing photos of the FLDS children and detailing Baptist Children Family Services overseeing the shelters, was authored by Kevin Dinnan, Pres. Since they took down the web page showing them operating the FLDS shelters over these children, I searched and found a Baptist Associated Press article which reveals 5 Baptist orgs. (churches and foster/adoption) involved; the BCFS running the shelters at the request of the State Governor’s Emergency Management Agency and it appears the FLDS babies and children are to be moved on into the Baptist hands for foster and likely adoption…into the hands of Baptist sexual predators?
http://www.abpnews.com/3120.article
We know the severe CPS problems, and considering the Baptist’s sexual abuse of children, why has the state of TX put the FLDS children in their hands? Moreover, why has not CPS raided every Baptist home and taken their babies and children?
UPDATE 4-28 YES—just what I predicted–Baptist got them…
http://www.baptiststandard.com/postnuke/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=7709
A review of the State CPS agency track records on caring for children is beneficial.
TX Comptroller, Carole Keeton-Strayhorn, in 2004, found the state’s CPS foster care kids–raped, murdered, poisoned.
She writes:
“When I called on Gov. Perry in October 2004 to create a Crisis Management Team, I said the crisis was minute-by-minute and child-by-child.
“In Fiscal 2004, four-year old twin boys living in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape.
“A five-year old boy in the same foster home received medical treatment in the hospital for rape two days later.
“A 15-year old girl who was not pregnant when she entered our state’s foster care system in May 2002 gave birth in February 2004.
“The state is supposed to be protecting our forgotten children, but in all too many cases these children are taken from one abusive situation and placed in another abusive situation. Many children are in more abusive situations now than they were before the state intervened. Children are being neglected and abused and are dying.”
http://www.window.state.tx.us/news/60623statement.html
* * *
April 28, 2008 at 11:44 am
We are at war and our freedoms have been taken away, just ask the Cheney Man and he will say “so”.
April 28, 2008 at 12:19 pm
In response to Clark
The age of consent in Texas is 17, Penal Code Section 21.11 (Only if the boy is under 21, otherwise the age of consent is 18). Your point is well taken though; this may affect some of the girls.
Also, CPS is claiming 55 current girls under 18 pregnant or with a child (not the previous “within the last 10 years” argument). That would be a lot, but again it has not been proven, just claimed.
I can’t dispute the due process violations. Walther is a vigilante, and the appellate court judges are enablers.
April 28, 2008 at 1:03 pm
I believe the blame for this mess lies squarely with the FLDS men. I think they should renounce polygamy. It is beyond ironic that the women and children are paying the heaviest price for this.
As for Texas– beyond the obvious massive civil rights violations, Texas response could hardly have been stupider and less effective. Some of the women in custody are over 18, but are still being detained. Some of the children belong to families that don’t practice polygamy, but are still being held. Some of them are nursing babies, several of whom are currently hospitalized for dehydration after not being able to adapt to bottle feeding. And Texas has possibly “lost” 2 of the male children.
And now that their foster system is glutted with nearly 500 FLDS children, what will become of the other Texas children who are really being abused? Where will they go?
April 28, 2008 at 1:30 pm
I’ve contacted the FLDS via their website and via an attorney for the FLDS whose name was provided to me by a reported. Sadly, my offer of help (as much as I can, given that I’m not barred in Texas) haven’t been answered as of yet. I hope Texas has a large surplus, because after the civil rights lawsuits, they are going to have to raise taxes to pay for all the pain & suffering inflicted on the FLDS parents and their children.
April 28, 2008 at 2:23 pm
Was there anyway to stop this abuse that would have been constitutional? The authorities in Utah have said that they couldn’t do anything because they couldn’t get the evidence they needed and they couldn’t find FLDS women willing to testify. They said that the community was too closed, had members in the police, and that the expelled members knew that their families still on the inside would be punished if they went against the FLDS leaders. I’ve heard the FLDS compared to the mob and it seems fair. Several big mob bosses were finally put away – not on murder charges, even though everyone knew they committed the crime – but on tax evasion laws that were specifically made to target them and give the state/federal officials some legal means of prosecuting them. BUT this hasn’t happened with the FLDS. Most political leaders won’t even bring up the subject (ie our presidential candidates) let alone work to bring an end do it. So, back to my original question – was there any other way? I’m still trying to have an open mind regarding this whole mess.
In my opinion the FLDS society is abusive to women. Even if she is never beaten physically, she is beaten in other ways. The moment a female child is born in that society her choices are taken away. She will be a wife and mother only or be loose her home, family, extended family and any means of feeding herself. She is told when she will “marry,” who she will marry, she can be “given” to another man if her original “husband” is ex-communicated. If she is unlucky enough to given to a man as a second, third, or eighth wife she has no legal rights to support for her or her children if he were to die or abandon her. She has no opportunity for higher education, she is not taught skills that she could use to support herself. She is kept behind locked fences with guard towers. She is emotionally controlled because she is taught from a very young age that everyone on the outside is evil and wants to hurt her and that the world “outside” will be destroyed any day now. She is told that if she left, not only would the rest of her moral life be hell, but she would be damned in the next one as well. She can’t choose to be a mother AND a teacher or doctor or blogger. She can’t choose how many children she wants to have, what to wear or how long to wear her own hair. She is impregnated early and often to ensure added dependence. There is also the threat to remaining family members if she were to leave. Her choices are taken away. A woman in that community has as hard a time leaving as a slave on a plantation did a hundred and fifty years ago. As a mormon, I believe that free-agency is priceless, that we fought a war in heaven to keep our agency. We wanted our choices to be our own – good or evil. In my opinion, this is more a moral issue than it is a legal issue.
I hate to see those women crying for their children just as much as anyone else. I’m a mormon from Wyoming – one of the reddest states in America. I hate big government as much as most other conservatives (but obviously not as much as some of you :)). But I do believe that government should provide some basic functions and one of those functions should be to protect the weak and those without a voice. Those crying mothers would have handed their own daughters over to be “married” to much older men. If the number of children taken in this raid is about 450, and we assume that half of them were girls, that would mean, that in several more years we would have 200 more mothers crying for their 2000 children. When should it stop?
April 28, 2008 at 2:46 pm
When the state can PROVE abuse and/or assault – by jailing the perpetrators.
Make no mistake about it: Texas CPS has placed MANY of these children in jail in a very real way. In some cases, foster care is wonderful. In some cases, it is decent. In many instances, foster care is worse than jail; the horror stories are legion.
April 28, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Teri, you sound as if having children is a burden that no woman should bear, and your reference to slavery is quite….wrong. These women do not live in seperate houses, nor are they bought are sold, that’s just a fallacy right there. Also, you say that 200 girls would in “several more years…[make]…2000 children” do you have a statistic that says each woman has 10 children? (Or at least an average) because everywhere I look I’ve seen a max of six children, which is perfectly fine, considering the care they take of them. If you wouldn’t mind would you go watch the dateline videos on the msnbc website, they tour the ranch and talk with some of the families, the quality of the buildings alone are the opposite of abuse.
The problem though, is that CPS is above the law, it works solely on it’s own (personally regulated) codes, and if they get a judge that will issue orders, especially without looking at all the evidence they basically have the freedom to do whatever they want with anything, all they have to do is say the parents aren’t cooperating and they can keep children forever. As having a (unwanted) relationship with Texas CPS, I can say that they will lie ever minute of every day to force their beliefs down others throats, I’m more afraid of CPS brainwashing (or therapy as they call it) than that of some weird religious sect. I’m not saying therapy in general is bad, it is a good thing that serves it’s purpose, but when you get into a CPS therapy class, everything is degrading to women, having children, sex, porn, working at home, not having a job, and just about anything else you can think of.
April 28, 2008 at 3:12 pm
This was on Talk of The Nation on NPR today, very interesting.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90006302
April 28, 2008 at 4:23 pm
Well now CPS claims 31 (out of 53 total, but previously claimed they had 55 pregnant or mothers). But they claim only two are currently pregnant. CPS sure has funny counting techniques. I hope they present some facts soon and stop spreading undocumented rumors.
April 28, 2008 at 5:00 pm
On the contrary William. I love being a wife and mother, and I have chosen to do that instead of do other things in my life right now. BUT I got to CHOOSE when to get married, WHO to marry and HOW many children to have. Women don’t like to be told that they are only good for having babies. Would men like to be told that they are nothing but sperm banks? I believe that women are allowed to be educated as they like, and make other choices about their lives that it makes them BETTER wives and mothers.
Besides – why does everybody say “give the children back to their mothers” why don’t they say “give the children back to their FATHERS and mothers? Real men stand up and take responsibility for their families.
April 28, 2008 at 5:06 pm
Yes. Demand DNA testing. Collect evidence as allowed by the search warrant. Interview women trying to find any that are willing to testify. Leave the young children with their mothers at the compound and remove the men. Allow lawyers to visit their clients easily. Allow each child’s case to be heard individually.
It was a reasonably simple process and I can’t fathom why the judge didn’t do it. The one fear was that the women with children might flee to Canada or somewhere. But I don’t think that as big a threat as some suggest.
There was no reason to try all children at once, limit lawyer’s ability to argue, and take away all children.
I think plenty of FLDS are guilty but what Texas did was ridiculous.
April 28, 2008 at 5:21 pm
Teri, did I say give them to their mothers? If I did it was not my intention and I wrote it poorly, they belong at their home with both their parents, or all 15 of their parents if they have that many sister wives or whatever, I think if everything happened with all the people at their house cooperating most all the current issues would not exist.
I do believe women have a right to choose children but to demonize a community because they hold their intrest in the idea that women are for child bearing is wrong. It is true women are for child bearing, because men sure as he’ll aren’t, and a culture that likes to emphasize that should not be looked down upon.
Also with their report that they have 53 girls that have been pregnant I find that interesting, how do they know? The DNA tests are supposed to take a month or more, but this might be the smoking gun cps needs, they’ll find a way to keep all the children.
April 28, 2008 at 5:22 pm
in response to #17 and some other inflamatory drewl above it.
Maybe I have missed an article, or a blog, or a news real. but, people #17 seem to think that they “the bad guys” had just cause to raid the place at anytime based on “law breaking”, Is that supposed to mean the “polygamy”?
For polygamy to be illegal don’t you have to be married?? These people are not married!!! They are just doing what your doing only you call it “club hopping”.
Last week I placed an epidural in a 17 year old hispanic girl. she was having her fourth baby. All by diffrent fathers.
After some quick math.. let me see…. carry the one… that would mean that she was in fact (gasp) pregant well before the “leagal” age of getting married in this great state of Texas; where I reside (thankfully not for long). While placing the epidural in her back I noted the tatoo along her lumbar area (tramp stamp) as we call them now days. I thought to myself, “man this is what those FLDS women need, some tatoos, nipple rings, huchy mama clothes” then all of the sudden they look like the rest of us. Then it would be fine to have children and multiple partners wouldn’t it.
disgusted at the the country and the state of its constitution (which hangs by a thread)
the bull
April 28, 2008 at 6:14 pm
You can call it a hippie commune if you want, but the bottom line is the men are old white gutless farts!!!
April 28, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Nearly, you say old white men as if it were a slur, that’s disheartening, but if you haven’t please watch the dateline NBC videos where they walk through the ranch, the men shown are quite the opposite. I don’t have a link because I’mnot at the house but I’ll be happy to post it when I am
April 28, 2008 at 7:28 pm
I do not think we will find Cozita Swinton because she has been kept in a safe house and given a new identity. We may never find out who coached her to be the instigator of the chaos we now experience. She has been used and is now expendable. If the perpetrators of this fiasco are successful, everyone will forget she existed. When the Democratic Convention is held in Denver, nobody will miss her when it is time to vote for Obama. Nobody will remember how she got to be a delegate.
We have also lost track of what started this series of events.
This is not about polygamy, child abuse or religion. It is all about dirty politics. The calls and raid were timed to reinforce negative PR for the selection of McCain’s VP and “NO MITT” advertising campaign against Mitt Romney.
For the whole story, see:
http://www.leongoodman.com/boise
April 28, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Wow, I thought I had heard all of the conspiracy theories that were possible. That’s a doozy!
April 28, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Thanks for the laughs, Boise — we needed an injection of humor right about now.
(Psst — it’s “Rozita,” not “Cozita.” Wouldn’t want anybody to be able to poke any hole in your beautifully constructed fantasy!)
April 28, 2008 at 8:51 pm
But, Ardis, isn’t Cozita the name of every woman who is running from authority – usually with a man named John? (or is it Jean?) *grin*
April 28, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Oh my god—pregnant seventeen year olds!! And 16 and 15!!!
But never forget that Texas lies. Temple sex bed? Lies. Cyanide documents, a la Jim Jones? lies. Child rape? Lies.
I thought the Texas authorites said these people raped children. Where are the stats on 13 and younger? Isn’t that what led to the raid?
If they took the kids away from every member of a type of group which has pregnant young ladies aged 17, would catholics be allowed to have kids? How about blacks? I know whites have pregnant teenagers. How about the Jews. I know they have pregnant teenagers. Let’s take away the kids of the Jews.
April 28, 2008 at 9:12 pm
There hugo again, Ray, victor in this sparring match.
April 28, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Thanks Ardis,
The hurrier I go the behinder I get. I knew Rozita was not in my spell checker. I’ll fix it on my web page, too. Is the grassy knoll still there?
April 28, 2008 at 10:34 pm
“hope Texas has a large surplus, because after the civil rights lawsuits, they are going to have to raise taxes to pay for all the pain & suffering inflicted on the FLDS parents and their children”
Yeah, that’s funny. First, you can’t sue Texas unless Texas says you can. Second, if you do sue Texas, you have to prove “intentional torts,” which is pretty much impossible. Third, if by some miracle you succeed at trial, your damages are limited to $250,000. And the verdict will be overturned on appeal. Probably 5-10 years later. Welcome to “Sovereign Immunity.”
As to the larger issue, so much conflicting information has been released (or leaked) from law enforcement and/or DFPS that we really have no idea of the facts. If underage girls were pregnant by adult men and NOT legally married to said men(and note that minors cannot get common law married), then that’s sexual assault of a child (aggravated if under 14) and it should be prosecuted. If they WERE legally married, then there was no crime (asuming no force was used; Texas does recognize spousal rape). Yes, you could argue it’s not fair to go all out against the YFZ Ranch when the crime’s being committed all over the State, but arguing “selective prosecution” will get you nowhere. But even if some succesful prosecutions come out of this whole fiasco, the ends do not justify the means; it doesn’t excuse the incompetent, ham-fisted and downright cruel way this whole sorry episode was handled.
April 28, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Well, then Crank? What remedy, if any, do these families have?
April 29, 2008 at 12:09 am
From an AP article:
“On Monday, CPS also revised its total count of children in state custody to 463, up one from Friday.
“Azar said the numbers could still change slightly because authorities have not seen documentation on all the children and have struggled to positively identify everyone.”
I don’t understand this. Every single child has been DNA sampled, photographed, and assigned a number. How can the number of children possibly vary? Just because there are a lot of kids, isn’t any excuse.
How many children is Texas CPS taking care of statewide? If they can’t keep track of a mere 500 children, how in the world do they run the whole system statewide?
Those poor children.
April 29, 2008 at 3:03 am
If the way that Texas has handled this and abused constitutional rights is not addressed and roundly condemned in the appellate courts, I am ready to agree that the Constitution is indeed hanging by a thread.
Teri Summers, this might seem hard for you to believe since I have been raising my voice consistently against the methods Texas is using and the very apparent abuses of authority and violations of the due process of law ever since soon after Texas first began this operation against the FLDS — but my view is that all of these children and women would actually be better off as Baptists or in a Baptist (or atheist) home (assuming there is no risk of abuse in such home). That is because I do not agree with the FLDS beliefs or practices and I agree that the FLDS system is oppressive and limiting in some respects to women.
However, my opinion of the FLDS beliefs does not give me the right to curtail FLDS civil and parental rights. Similarly Texas’ opinion about the FLDS faith — or rather the opinion of certain officials acting in the name of the State of Texas — does not give Texas the right to curtail FLDS civil and parental rights.
April 29, 2008 at 7:05 am
From this morning’s news reports: “According to that CPS document, one woman was 13 when she conceived a child who was born in 1997; another was 14 when she conceived a child born in 2000.”
These dates are well before the FLDS move to Texas — is Texas presuming to investigate crimes that occurred elsewhere? And worse, punish families for associating with the victims (the 13- and 14-year-olds) all these years after those crimes? (This is, of course, granting that CPS has these dates and ages right — a mighty leap, given their incompetence to date.)
Texas is rather full of itself, no?
April 29, 2008 at 9:02 am
john: it isn’t hard for me to believe. I’m glad you were willing to share your views on the moral side of this issue and not just the legal side. The FLDS members themselves are claiming that the action was illegal, and we know that they justify this abuse. I’m glad to hear – and I presumed this to be the case – that some, or most, of those who believe the action was illegal do not agree with the practices of this cult.
The legality of this Texas mess is interesting to me because this sect has been functioning for so long, and nothing has been done because authorities in other states have said that they do/did not have the legal means to prosecute. Perhaps they were right and what Texas has done is illegal. Time will tell. I honestly don’t know enough about the law in Texas to be able to decide that. But I will continue to follow the story as closely as I can.
Off Topic: Statistics about the age and gender of the FLDS children now in foster care were released today by CPS. 1 – I’ve always looked younger to other people than I really am – that doesn’t seem like a good enough test to me. BUT, if these women/girls won’t give their real age, or don’t know their real age, and their parents never filed a birth certificate I’m not sure what else the state of Texas can do. 2- Did anyone else notice that after the age of 10 the number of boys started do go down? So, what happened to them? This gives credence to the “lost boys” phenomenon that this sect is accused of. The FLDS fathers and leaders had better start coming up with something to defend themselves because the statistics CPS are reporting just make them look bad, and it won’t be long before public opinion can no longer be swayed by crying women and claims of religious intolerance.
April 29, 2008 at 9:26 am
Whose best interests are served? The secret society of Juvenile Law or the secret sect of religious zealots. I vote for the openness of government which would diminish the need for staying out of the sights of some other religious zealots.
April 29, 2008 at 10:08 am
Nothing has been done? Two of the leaders are in prison and the reason the FLDS fled to Texas was to avoid prosecution in Utah.
April 29, 2008 at 10:11 am
If the adult male is in that family then the fact he was raping a young girl 10 years ago and presumably continued raping her for years thereafter surely is relevant isn’t it?
One can condemn the judge for excessive action while still thinking that a horrible crime like the above ought be dealt with.
Surely you don’t think child rape shouldn’t matter if it happened 10 years ago.
April 29, 2008 at 10:39 am
Just for perspective, there is a VERY insightful question asked at:
http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/04/following-the-precedent/
I know the situation at the FLDS might be systemic, but isn’t the principle the same?
April 29, 2008 at 11:04 am
I believe that child rape in this case is not the intent of the law, the law was meant to prosecute people who rape children and leave them, or habitually rape them causing physical or (debatable) emotional harm. For these people this “child rape” is nothing but a long-term commitment to the welfare of both people and their children, which are neither neglected nor abused (at least at a greater percent than the general population) I know this is a tough stand to take, but I think the fact that these people are not just raping them for their sexual desires should hold some weight, they are doing what *their* morals say are allowable.
It really comes down to, do you trust a government agency or a splinter (arguably cult) religious sect who is known for illegal actions and lying, deception, disenfranchising young boys and raping young girls.
I don’t put my trust in the government, I would rather have some crazy sect that affects their 600-odd people than an over-bearing government that affects 300-million with their decision.
April 29, 2008 at 11:21 am
“if these women/girls won’t give their real age, or don’t know their real age, and their parents never filed a birth certificate I’m not sure what else the state of Texas can do.”
Notice that all these statements are ifs, and they rely entirely on CPS’ representations being honest and accurate- both things I believe have been shown to be false.
The girls’ lawyers have pointed out that they do have birth certificates, but the judge ruled that Texas didn’t have to accept them because they ‘might’ be forged.
CPS says the girls don’t know their ages, but if you read the reports, it’s obvious CPS will accept their statement of their age as factual so long as they claim to be under 18.
We’re getting a clearer picture of how CPS is determining the ages of these young women (emphasis added):
April 29, 2008 at 11:21 am
Oops.
April 29, 2008 at 1:27 pm
John above says ‘…but my view is that all of these children and women would actually be better off as Baptists or in a Baptist (or atheist) home (assuming there is no risk of abuse in such home).’
John, please google baptist sexual abuse and you will be shocked.
The baptist service organization (contracted to the state of TX) are running the shelters and have taken children into foster arrangements. Articles are on the web.
The baptist church is rife with sexual abuse of minors. The baptist heirachy also maintains a secret list of 100 clergy accused or convicted of sexual abuse of children. They refuse to release the list to the public. I have a classic article from the Dallas Morning News in from 2007.
Then, google Carole Keeton Strayhorn comptroller (former) of TX–on CPS abuse and raping, poisoning, and death of children in their custody. She issued a full report about 2004 05.
I posted my full writing here with links, but apparently, the moderator believed it a duplicate of a long past other post.
These children are in danger in state custody and an no more safe in baptist homes, much less in CPS state setups.
April 29, 2008 at 2:37 pm
“If the adult male is in that family then the fact he was raping a young girl 10 years ago and presumably continued raping her for years thereafter surely is relevant isn’t it?”
Yes, unless they were legally married. And in Texas, until recently, 14 was the minimum age. If they were married, assuming no force was used since Texas does recognize spousal rape, then no crime was committed.
April 29, 2008 at 6:21 pm
UPDATE–April 29, 2008:
SLT Headlines are misleading…saying ‘teenager’ (attorney and doc says 18)…the woman giving birth age is contested…and backup by document so…CPS ONLY making claims again.
My spouse said last week….’what will TX and CPS do when the next FLDS baby is born?”
Here ya go folks–Woman giving birth—TX Rangers and CPS standing by at hospital.
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9095983
April 29, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Wait a minute, Texas is going to prosecute a crime committed more then 10 years ago in another state?! Can they do that? What if it wasn’t illegal 10 years ago in whatever state they were in at the time? (I’m not sure when the statutory rape laws were established.) Can they do that?
Doesn’t the woman become a consenting adult at 18? (Assuming no spousal rape in any case.)
April 29, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Okay, I just read the article with the age by “eyeballing” in it. So Texas can ignore birth certificates and any other documentation and just say “yep, that one looks 13, must be?” (This one hits home. I am always accused of looking 10 years younger then I really am. When I was in my 20’s I often was asked if I had “some sort of ID” because I “couldn’t possibly be old enough to drive.”) Isn’t this manufacturing evidence? And how is a person supposed to prove they are a certain age if the usual documents aren’t considered acceptable? What is Texas thinking?
April 29, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Don’t mess with Texas’s mess!
April 29, 2008 at 8:10 pm
It’s a boy…and ‘ward of the state’ just the mother—officials say:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/POLYGAMIST_RETREAT?SITE=TXDAM&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
April 29, 2008 at 8:13 pm
I must add this:
Due to jobs, we were forced to be in TX for a while.
Finally, we got out and are now near Boston.
In TX we were desperate to flee—people are mean, stupid, cruel, and will tell a lie when the truth would do just fine.
The government machine is so corrupt on the local, county, and state level.
This state crime fits perfectly with what I know of TX.
April 29, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Here’s an interesting read by a Texas criminal defense lawyer
http://www.johntfloyd.com/comments/april08/22a.htm
April 30, 2008 at 11:58 am
Here is a video of a former federal judge. He has some very interesting comments.
http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video08.html?videoId=ad65de0f-2b4e-4e98-a416-30f185ef1053&sMPlaylistID=
April 30, 2008 at 12:10 pm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24388249/
New press release, 41 out of 467 has had broken bones, less than 10% that’s actually a low percent, I have broken two bones myself, and I know more than 10% of the people I associate with have had a broken bone. I’m not really seeing the problem with this? Do y’all think this is just sensationalism? That’s how it’s coming off to me
April 30, 2008 at 3:10 pm
I think it is cause for concern, but Parker also says that some of the children have brittle bone disease and they told CPS that when CPS took the children.
April 30, 2008 at 4:02 pm
I am interested in legal action to protect the rights of parents. I would like to have a movement for a “Parents Bill of Rights.” I would also like to see a movement for including polygamists in civil unions/domestic partnerships. I think the best place to get laws passed would be in CA. Unfortunately, I am not a California resident.
Guy, what is your opinion on laws like these? Would one pass in California?
April 30, 2008 at 7:17 pm
CPS is tired of taking flack for this and so is the state. so they are comming up with anything that can even remotely look like a “see we told you so” ie broken bones or who has been or is pregnagnt. none of these change the facts.
kidnapped on false allegations
crooked baptists judge
etc. etc..
April 30, 2008 at 10:43 pm
“to commit, as the state of Texas has, ethnic cleansing. I only call it that instead of genocide, because it was done without bloodshed.”
The Genocide Treaty, to which America is a signatory, does not restrict genocide to killing off only. It includes taking the children of one group (the FLDS) and giving them to another (the non-FLDS). The penalty is $500,000 per child, unless a death occurs, in which case it goes to a million – and this is for merely INCITING, let alone PARTICIPATING in carrying it out!
The arrogant and heartless judge in this case, along with Texas Ranger officials and CPS personnel, are going to find themselves standing trial in an international tribunal for inciting and carrying out this genocide against the FLDS. It will be poetic justice – a higher authority swooping in to screw up your life.
April 30, 2008 at 10:51 pm
Any radiologist can tell if an injury fracture is from nonaccidental trauma or if the injury/location does not match the given history. If CPS said we have kids with broken ribs that would be one thing but to make a general statement like breaks equal child abuse? How can they even claim that not being physicians? Maybe their expert psychiatrist watched ER and opened up a radiology practice! This really shows how foolish they are making those statements.
I hope a physician writes a letter to the paper and explains the common accidental injuries for each age group (like the locations and types of fractures) and then compares it what they find when it’s inflicted.
April 30, 2008 at 11:29 pm
Carey Cockerell, the head of the state’s Department of Family and Protective Services, told state lawmakers Wednesday his agency was investigating whether young boys were abused based on “discussions with the boys.”
What kind of discussions are they having with these boys? These people are the sickest perverts, who knows what they are doing and saying to these kids.
May 1, 2008 at 9:07 am
More then one “confession” has been made up, on the spot, by a kid because they were told that if they will “confess” they can go home. I think these children are particularly vulnerable to this kind of coercion. I also feel that no evidence the state obtains from this point forward can be considered at face value.
There is another group of children the state of Texas should be sure to remove. Texas apparently believes in removing children because, in the future, they might become perpetrators and victims based on what they experienced as children at home. So they have no choice but to remove all children from all homes with the game grand theft auto.
(The sad thing is that there are some folks who will ignore the sarcasm in the above paragraph and say “sure.” I am truly disheartened by the people who call themselves Americans but then sell our freedoms for nothing at all.)
May 1, 2008 at 3:02 pm
No SH, they need to remove the kids who’s parents brutally beat them with wooden sticks, and their belts at the slightest notion. Or as I like to call, paddling your children. I wish my parents gave me the switch more, maybe I wouldn’t have been the little shit I am!
May 1, 2008 at 3:43 pm
Commissioner Cockerell (head of TX Department of Family and Protective Services) claims FLDS Abuse?
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9106612?source=rv
Who is Cockerell?
A report of 2-15-08 –As head over CPS Commissioner Cockerell has been personally named in a sexual abuse law suit. The perpetrator was a guard arrested and for sexual abuse of illegal youths being held in DFPS facilities. Other abusers have been named as well.
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA021608.01B.immig-childabuse.3689173.html
COCKERELL TESTIFIED AGAINST THE FLDS ALLEGING ABUSE BEFORE THE TX SENATE COMMITTEE WHO OVERSEES CPS DOINGS–While he has a suit pending against him for allowing sexual abuse as head over CPS. It should be noted too…this suit is not for ‘alleged’ sexual abuse–as at least one prison guard was arrested and convicted.
Here are the members of the TX Senate committee–before which Cockerell made his claims of FLDS abuse.
http://www.senate.state.tx.us/75r/senate/commit/c610/c610.htm
PS: Cockerell got his undergrad degree from
Ouachita Baptist University in Arkansas.
Anyone surprised?
May 2, 2008 at 4:36 pm
innocent until proven guilty if you are gay,lesbian,black,but not flds
May 2, 2008 at 4:41 pm
make any sense?
May 3, 2008 at 3:56 am
Actually no, OJ. It doesn’t. One set of weak political arguments at a time, please
May 3, 2008 at 6:19 am
The Texas law was passed due to the moving of the FLDS. It is a textbook case of an unconstitutional law, passed explicitly to discriminate against 1 specific religious group. see 113 S.Ct. 2217 (1993), the Hialeah (sp?) case. 9-0.
May 7, 2008 at 5:42 pm
I heard today the judge ORDERED that prosecution proceed. Does that mean she is in deep trouble constitutionally unless at least something criminal is established, even if it has to be trumped up? You may not have yet seen the interesting viewpoint in: “Lessons of the Texas FLDS Raid”
http://spirituallibertarian.blogspot.com/
May 11, 2008 at 6:47 pm
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA051108.01A.mhmrreports.3a4fa3e.html
Mental health staffers blast state care of sect kids
May 11, 2008 at 6:48 pm
http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/metro/stories/MYSA051108.01A.mhmrreports.3a4fa3e.html
May 12, 2008 at 10:02 pm
I just completed a scholarly piece on Article 2(e) of the Genocide Convention. The FLDS removals may indeed qualify as genocide. The Material factors are all obviously satisfied; the children were indeed children, the FLDS are a group specifically protected by the convention, the children were indeed transferred to another group, etc.. It is also clear that the transfers were conducted “forcibly.” The real hurdle comes in proving the removals were carried out with specific intent to destroy the group. Depending on the standard of evidence demanded, this could be quite difficult. Of course, the real difficulty would probably lie in finding a court in Texas to entertain a genocide claim.
If you are interested in the genocide claim you can find my article on forcible child transfer at: http://works.bepress.com/kurt_mundorff/2/
Kurt
May 15, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Ya know — after looking into what is going on and researching the FLDS I have come to the conclusion that –
1. There is no evidence– NO EVIDENCE!! that the men of the FLDS are guilty of anything. Not even Warren Jeffs. Look up the trial records! NO EVIDENCE! Only hearsay and emotion!!!! NO EVIDENCE!!!
2. There is no evidence that the FLDS faith is a cult, or that where they live, in whatever state, is a compound! Look up the definetion on compound. Look up the definetion of cult– Hello America — there is no evidence against these people!!
3. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THAT THE FLDS FAITH IS ANYTHING BUT A RELIGION!!! NOT A POPULAR ONE – BUT NETHER WAS THE CHRISTEN RELIGION WHEN CHRIST HIMSELF WAS HERE AND NETHER WAS THE MORMON CHURCH NETHER WAS ANY RELIGION AT SOME POINT!!! DO YOUR HOMEWORK!
MAYBE WE NEED TO WAKE UP AMERICA AND SEE THAT WE HAVE VICTIMIZED THESE PEOPLE BECAUSE OF OUR STEREOTYPES.
May 22, 2008 at 11:37 am
YAY! The Texas Appellate Court just ruled that the state had no justification for taking the children!!!!
http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/021119.html
May 22, 2008 at 11:37 am
Guy,
Have you seen the latest?
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9347022
May 23, 2008 at 10:28 am
There are two things some of y’all need to get straight (especially “nearlynormalized” who appears to be a first-rate moron):
1. Nobody committed the “crime” of polygamy. That would be where somebody is actually married to two or more wives or husbands. These guys are legally married to only one wife. The others are “spiritual wives”. So they may be guilty of adultery or fooling around as far at their multiple “wives” are concerned, but adultery and fooling around aren’t crimes. (What everybody hates is that they do it openly and don’t feel guilty about it.)
2. A “cult” is a religion you don’t like. Only an idiot goes around saying somebody else’s religion is a cult. Say somebody’s religion is nasty or distasteful; that’s your opinion. Call it a “cult” and you expose your ignorance.
May 24, 2008 at 11:16 am
God is at the helm!!!!
May 24, 2008 at 8:23 pm
[…] Guy Murray – “Messenger and Advocate” Blogger […]
June 5, 2008 at 2:41 am
I tried to leave a comment on a fox news blog but apparently they are afraid of the government. The Texas mess is coming to look vary semilar to the intial raids done by the gestapo on the jews. What will the public say when the gestapo is knocking down their door!