Well, Texas has not done anything right in this case from the inception–why start now?. So, while I am disappointed to hear they plan to appeal the ruling, it is not really a surprise. The Salt Lake Tribune reports:
SAN ANGELO, Texas — The Texas Department of Family and Protective Service says it will file an appeal with the Texas Supreme Court in an attempt to stop an appellate court ruling that FLDS children were kept in state custody improperly.
A department spokesman had planned a statement this morning, but postponed it until after a 1:30 p.m. Central time hearing regarding Louisa Bradshaw, who gave birth while in state custody. Bradshaw is one of three women named in mandamus appeal that was approved by the 3rd Court of Appeals in Austin on Thursday.
From the local San Angelo newspaper:
SAN ANGELO – Texas child welfare authorities plan today to appeal a stinging ruling that found they had no right to seize more than 440 children from a polygamist sect’s ranch, a court spokesman said.
Child Protective Services notified the Texas Supreme Court today that “they will file something today,” court spokesman Osler McCarthy said.
The state can ask the high court to block the ruling Thursday by the Third Court of Appeals in Austin. The appellate court found the state failed to show the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints children were in any immediate danger when they were rounded up from the sect’s Yearning For Zion Ranch near Eldorado and sent to foster facilities around the state.
A message left for a Child Protective Services spokeswoman was not immediately returned Friday.
Yeah, if I worked for the Texas CPS I wouldn’t return any phone calls either. In fact, I’d be looking to make certain the legal defense fund and potential judgement pool from which to satisfy future Section 1983 lawsuits was more than adequately funded.
The Deseret News is reporting that Texas has already filed the appeal:
SAN ANGELO, Texas — Texas child welfare authorities have filed an appeal with the Texas Supreme Court challenging yesterday’s appeals court decision that ordered the return of children seized from the Fundamentalist LDS Church’s YFZ Ranch.
The appeal was filed just before noon Mountain time.
Attorneys representing 38 FLDS mothers told the Deseret News they are already drafting a response.
Rod Parker, a Salt Lake attorney representing the FLDS Church, said any appeal by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services would be an uphill battle.
I agree with Rod Parker, Texas has an uphill battle here. About the only folks on the planet who can’t see the Texas sized disaster this has been since CPS became involved are Judge Barbara Walther and CPS itself.
The money quote from Mr. Parker:
“They ought to take a step back and think about what they’re doing here and if it’s really best for the children in the face of what’s happened to them so far and their inability to produce any evidence,” he said.
“This is an agency that’s out of control.”
Out of control is a charatible description. Texas erased any doubt–if ever there was any–that they do not have the children’s interest in mind here. What they have in mind is a way to cover their back sides for such an inept and incompetent way they have bungled this disaster from minute one.
In California, and at the federal level, the supreme court does not have to hear an appeal. It is discretionary. I assume Texas is the same; however, I have long ago stopped making reasonable assumptions about Texas. My only hope is that there is some procedural way to expedite the appellate process here. If Texas is wrong–and I am convinced that it is, every minute longer that these children are under their control they continue to suffer irreparable harm.
I applaud the attorneys, most of whom are likely working pro bono representing the mothers, children, and fathers in this case. They are the unsung heroes who are bringing real justice to the cowboy mentality which has reigned far too long out there in West Texas.
May 23, 2008 at 1:21 pm
I totally agree with you. The way they have handled this situation is completely wrong. By taking action against all of the children rather than on a case by case basis, they have basically shown that they are attacking the religion, and not just their actions. I think they haven’t learned any lessons from Waco.
May 23, 2008 at 1:41 pm
I have been horrified by all of this. What self-righteous person thinks they can do something like this and be right? Grrr. This gets the mother bear in me all teased and ready to pounce.
May 23, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Guy, great coverage on this…thanks!
May 23, 2008 at 8:29 pm
“jks” made a comment over on Mormon Matters (http://mormonmatters.org/ – “Breaking News”) that encapsulates my feelings concerning the foster care system and its use in this case.
His/her comment #13 says: “I find it ironic that they pull children out of their home because they might be abused….only to put them into the foster care system that has a history/reputation of abuse itself. And because of the number of children involved, they were scrambling to find homes to place them in……which means that they might not have been as careful in making sure the kids are placed in safe situations.”
May 23, 2008 at 8:30 pm
That wink was supposed to be a parenthesis.
May 24, 2008 at 8:19 am
Is anyone shocked by the photos released yesterday of Jeffs holding a 12 year old girl in his arms (she is off the ground) and kissing her?
One of the FLDS “gentleman” was the brother of this poor girl. He claimed not to know is she was married to Jeffs. And, his wife claimed Jeffs was “perfect”.
This really is a sick society. Even creepy. Jeffs and his fellow leaders are a malignancy that need to be excised in my opinion.
Any other thoughts?
May 24, 2008 at 8:43 am
Steve,
Yes, I have seen the photo, and I am disturbed by it. My response is that any such credible evidence should be turned over to authorities. The authorities should, within the confines of existing law, investigate, and criminally prosecute when the evidence warrants. This is true not only for Warren Jeffs, and any other FLDS person, but for everyone, everywhere.
May 24, 2008 at 10:14 am
I don’t think anyone (here anyway) would seriously dispute that Warren Jeffs was a sociopathic cult-leader who abused his congregation, took advantage of his position and terrorized his followers. That, however, is beside the point. The YFZ folk have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to believe Warren Jeffs is a persecuted martyr all they want. The legal question is, would these parents either harm their children or allow someone else to harm them? Warren Jeffs is in prison where he belongs so he’s no threat to anyone anymore. The YFZ families, who are really his victims, shouldn’t be considered guilty by association.
May 24, 2008 at 10:14 am
It bothers me when people misuse/abuse information (esp. as Texas CPS has been doing)! Yes, I too saw several pictures of young girls standing next to Warren Jeffs – one in particular looked very young (like 10)! But who’s to say that those pictures were anything more than young girls wanting a picture with the man they believe to be a prophet? It certainly doesn’t mean they are all some of Jeffs’ many wives!
Regarding the one photo of Jeffs holding (literally up in his arms) and kissing a girl, it’s obvious from the picture that she is not the young looking girls but a more mature female (still young, I’m sure). Yet Steve claims the girl is 12 and yesterday I read she was 13. We don’t know who the girl is nor her age!
I do hope all FLDS members come to their senses and prevent future marriages with underage females. Hopefully, this whole sad affair will put scare them enough to avoid such marriages.
Nevertheless, CPS in Texas is equally abusive by what they’ve done! I hope the Texas Supreme Court comes down on them as hard as the appellate court did! In all honesty, what CPS has done scares me to death! Are their counterparts in all states equally abusive of human rights and the laws under which they are supposed to function?
In CPS’s appeal, they say that the appellate court has a broader concern than CPS does, which only has the safety of children as their concern. Yet, shouldn’t the welfare of children always take into account their love and need for parents? The damage done by CPS in forcefully removing 450-plus children has to harm those children in serious and long-term ways which will affect them for the rest of their lives! “Imminent danger” ought to be interpretted literally by child protective organizations, whereas Texas’ CPS personnel think that “years from now” falls within that definition. How utterly ridiculous!
May 24, 2008 at 1:32 pm
“Are their counterparts in all states equally abusive of human rights and the laws under which they are supposed to function?”
Yes and it’s worse, moms never get to go with their kids, it’s a living nightmare for any family. Children are so abused in foster care, I know several women my age who spent time in care and All were raped by someone residing in foster home like a brother, or someone unofficially living there like the mother’s boyfriend.
Carey – this is my experience: A CPS worker opened my door (it was not an emergency and was very clear it was a vindictive non-custodial parent, the officer with the worker gave the other parent a warrant outside my home the day before), when I asked for a search warrant, the worker told me, that is for the other states! I then had to argue to call a lawyer. I could have robbed a bank in daylight and I would have not been denied a chance to call a lawyer.
I did not stop stating I needed to call a lawyer depsite her attempts to redirect me.
LOL The law changed all of a sudden and she did need a search warrant after speaking to the lawyer.
Then after doing her assessment and leaving, she complaned to me that she was late to court because I did blah blah blah and it should have only taken a few minutes! OK if your current job’s time pressure forces you to violate people’s rights and lie find an honest way of earing a living!
My son is still traumatized, he is so scared when anyone knocks on our door. He will never understand the law about the rights against search and seizure and will always be afraid of government. When they were knocking I told him not to worry, nobody can enter and explained to him about our rights, and then they opened our door and threatened us. It’s ashame it took having a lawyer speak to them just to get them to stop violating our rights.
May 24, 2008 at 2:24 pm
The picture is question is, according to the Deseret News, one of the then-12 year old sister of Dan Jessop, an FLDS member.
It is part of a collection of three showing Jeffs with very young girls.
Jeffs is clearly a pedophile. The key problem is that his followers think that his form of behavior is ok, even laudable.
For instance, Mr. Jessop claimed not to know if his sister is married to Jeffs — a clear lie. Of course he knows that she is –- and Mr. Jessop doesn’t mind lying for his pedophilic leader.
The FLDS are a disturbing sect. They clearly have a culture that abuses women and promotes the sexual abuse of minors by older men. And, they believe they should lie to protect their lifestyle from scrutiny.
The key issue is can individual FLDS families be held accountable for the acts and attitudes of their community. It’s a tough one. The trial court judge felt one way. The court of appeals came down another way. The Texas Supreme Court will need to resolve the issue.
I personally think that a culture can be so dangerous that dramatic action is justified. In my opinion, the FLDS cross that threshold. Others will disagree.
May 24, 2008 at 4:03 pm
Steve, I think the position of most who have commented here (and other LDS-themed blogs I have read) is that there simply hasn’t been any *proof* presented in this case. It appears that the CPS acted simply to destroy the group – not to address actual imminent harm to individuals.
For example, if they had removed only those girls who were 12-15 (or maybe 10-15), since it is legal for a 16-year-old girl in Texas to marry with parental consent, I’m not sure the appellate court would have overturned the decision.
I would LOVE to see all pedophiles and those who force underage marriage prosecuted to the full extent of the law. My reaction as a father to those who sexually abuse underage boys or girls is quite primal – slow castration without anesthesia. That, however, is not allowed (properly) in our society, so I am left to support application of the existing laws FOR ALL. If the Texas CPS can remove these children on nothing more than an allegation, my kids (especially my four daughters) might be in danger of the same thing happening to them.
I can’t support that.
May 24, 2008 at 5:46 pm
I differ with the claim of no evidence.
Consider:
* The lifestyle itself is illegal. Polygamy/bigamy violates the laws of Texas and every other state.
* The FLDS folks have been systematically marrying underage girls to older men. In most places that is called child rape.
* The inhabitants of the ranch are devotees of their pedophile prophet. The very purpose of the ranch is to engage in these activities beyond the sight of the authorities.
* The children on ranch — at the very least — are immersed in an environment of polygamy and child rape. Plus, they are being taught to be loyal to a pedophile.
Now, defenders of the FLDS claim that only a few underage girls are at issue. Shame. One is too many. Some argue that living in the cult is better than CPS. Still others state that polygamy is a right or that government should turn a blind eye.
It is time to admit that polygamy itself is a crime and imprison those involved. The FLDS expel their teenage boys, deny education to their followers and hide family members from those who leave the “faith”.
This is an evil cult. Every one of the parents that live with their children in this environment are engaged in a form of child abuse. They are not entitled to continue.
Hopefully the Texas Supreme Court this weekend or early next week will overturn the court of the appeals.
May 24, 2008 at 6:26 pm
“(it was not an emergency and was very clear it was a vindictive non-custodial parent, the officer with the worker gave the other parent a warrant outside my home the day before)”
And sadly this happens all the time, non-custodial parents, angry ex girlfriends or boyfriends, angry family members, even angry neighbors! In one case I handled, the non-custodial father accused the stepfather of sexual abuse time after time after time over a period of years. Every single time, stepfather passed a polygraph. I got involved when CPS showed up and the door right late at night after the mother (my client) had just given birth and threatened to remove the infant if she didn’t kick stepfather out of the house. By the time it was over, CPS dropped out of the case, the non-custodial father’s case was dismissed by the court, and he was sanctioned and order to pay my client’s attorney fees. She never got an apology from CPS, however, despite the fact that I clearly proved that the accusations were false and vindictive.
May 24, 2008 at 9:57 pm
[edited]
The system should look at each person individually.
May 24, 2008 at 10:29 pm
I’m still concerned about the fate of these children, especially after hearing about strong connections between the Texas Supreme Court and CPS. See here: Is The TX Supreme Court Deck Already Stacked Against FLDS?. What do you think about this, Guy?
May 24, 2008 at 11:18 pm
truth seeker #15 – you are absolutely correct that “The system should look at each person individually!”
Steve #11 & #13 – my wife was raised FLDS as the oldest of 13 children (and her father never had more than 1 wife, which is actually very common among the FLDS). She married when almost 18 (yes, an FLDS marriage), but only when she felt ready and wanted marriage. Today, 2 of her 6 children remain in that faith (the others eventually became LDS). (BTW, it takes large FLDS families just for their population to remain relatively stagnant since so many eventually leave, including most of my wife’s siblings.)
We married 17 years ago in the Jordan River Temple. In all honesty, throughout those 17 years I have always felt that my wife has more divine-like qualities than anyone else I’ve ever met. And, yes, I’ve often wondered how much of her nature is due to the way she was raised!
Anyway, why must you and so many others judge all FLDS the same? It’s as unwarranted as judging all Americans based upon the wicked among us. Like me, aren’t you offended everyday by things you see on TV, read in a newspaper, etc? Doesn’t our American culture leave a great deal to be desired?
Please know that I am sincere when I say that there are many wonderful FLDS people. (Warren Jeffs, unfortunately, is proving not to be one of them!) And I’m sure many FLDS, over time, would be questioning his actions if society treated the FLDS as citizens deserving fair and impartial treatment under the law. But so many blogs I’ve read essentially condone illegal means to produce a specific end. This type of persecution is exactly what occurred during the early LDS history.
May 25, 2008 at 1:53 am
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9374637
I’m not FLDS and never have met anyone FLDS but do you think they would even allow a photo like that to be taken? Just being around conservative people my entire life I have a hard time buying it.
May 25, 2008 at 2:11 am
Mrs. Adams & SLT has a new article out this morning.
I’m not FLDS and have never met anyone who practices it but being around conservative people my entire life, do you think they would even allow a photo like that to be taken? I’m not buying it.
May 25, 2008 at 7:24 am
The Bitter Hinterlands are not FLDS and do not agree with Warren Jeffs and his ilk. However, it is not child abuse being raised in a religious setting. It that was the case, how many of you would lose your children?
Yes if any cases of child abuse are proven then those responsible should be prosecuted. But the state of Texas is abusing the children they seized illegally. Who’s next out there?
http://goesdownbitter.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/kids-alone/
May 25, 2008 at 2:15 pm
The cruxt of the Third Appeals Court ruling centers around using the statistics of the group to predict the future actions of individuals that are still prepubescents, half 5 years or less of age.
In statistics, the probability of a single action cannot be determined, only the probability of a certain outcome among a very large number of the same actions.
The law also avoids the fallacy of judging the individual by the actions of a group.
The Third Appeals Court has stated that each individual case must individually determined and for the prepubescent children that is impossible because any actual evidence is in the future and does not now exist.
They will not be overturned and even if they do it would go to the Federal court who eill follow the Constitution and Bill Of Rights. Under US law no one is guilty for the actions of a group and must be tried individually will tailored evidence.
Judge Walthers didn’t think about the US civil rights issues or if she did, she allowed emotions to rule over precedence. The problem is not with Texas wishing to change the FLDS behavior, but rather, the improper methods.
May 25, 2008 at 4:03 pm
“Under US law no one is guilty for the actions of a group and must be tried individually will tailored evidence”
Are there any consequences for the judge for having a group hearing and refusing to have individual hearings?
May 25, 2008 at 8:59 pm
The problem with trying individuals is the significant flight risk. Does anyone really believe that if the authorities went in and arrested just one man on rape charges that there would be ANY men left on the ranch the next day? They follow Warren Jeffs, they are his most ardent supporters – they would run just as he did. Texas knew that and so do most people. I’m not saying what they did was legal, but I understand WHY they did what they did. I don’t think that the constitution/justice system is is set up to handle a case like this. Texas CPS may have made an error, but an error on the side of protecting children. We have this organization because children are powerless.
Regarding the photo of Warren Jeffs with the 13 year old girl: Merill and Barbra Jessop (the girls parents) should be arrested for accomplice to rape! They turned their 12 year old over to this rapist. Somebody took that picture, others in the community most certainly knew that she had became his latest victim. The reason we judge the Texas FLDS based on the wickedness of Warren Jeffs is because they continue to announce their alliegence to him, hang his picture on every wall, and support/make possible his actions.
This mess just gets uglier and uglier. The FLDS would have been better off if they would have signed the family service plans, and followed them. Now, they will have to endure more trails – this disgusting picture is just the beginning of the nasty secrets that will come out through the course of these trials. These particular FLDS have shown themselves to be liars and cowards.
May 25, 2008 at 9:20 pm
Glad to hear that you have been blessed with the divine power of reading the hearts and minds of so many people you have never met. Poor ol’ me, I have to depend on nothing more than confidence in the rule of law, which has been so badly bruised in this whole process — if the state of Texas had any confidence in the law, they would not trample those laws so badly in the muck themselves.
But as long as wyogirl is in a position to know the unknowable, who needs law?
May 25, 2008 at 9:59 pm
“Are there any consequences for the judge for having a group hearing and refusing to have individual hearings?”
Short answer? No. Getting smacked down that hard on an appeal is probably the extent of it.
May 26, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Look, it’s not just Texas that is the “Wild West,” these “child protection” organizations are some of the most dangerous organizations in the country. They are the “parent police” who routinely make parents fearful of correcting and disciplinging their children for fear they might be “reported.” They are family terrorists.
They run one of the most oppressive government organizations anywhere, they target parents to take their children into custody! Stop and think about the insanity of this for a moment, SUPPOSEDLY a parent may, or may not have committed some crime. Supposedly against the child, yet the children are taken into custody? And then the law, what law? These are out of control government organizations that are ripping families to pieces for no good reason…
May 27, 2008 at 1:30 am
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_9388887
They had orders/paperwork and CPS still gave them a hard time when it came to bring the kids back. What a double standard the fort they kept the children would not have passed inspection for a dog kennel. The parents were never had allegations against them about unsanitary housing.
May 27, 2008 at 9:50 am
Bill #26,
I couldn’t agree more! Child protective laws are meant to aid abuded children, which is good, but agencies like CPS are filled with employees abusing the very laws they operate under. Many enjoy the power they have under the law and often demonstrate a “I’ll show you!” attitude with people who don’t kowtow to their every demand.
I have a step-daughter in prison (justifiably so!), and over the years she’s been there, visiting often, we (her family) have witnessed this very same problem with many correctional officers. They absolutely enjoy the power they have (they surely don’t remain in that profession because it pays well!), and they often treat outsiders like us as poorly as they do the prisoners. Of course, because these are “bad” people in our prisons/jails, society seldom gets upset about the abuse prisoners deal with on a daily basis.
I must admit, however, that there are also many good correction officers (and CPS workers), but both systems don’t oversee their employees like they should. Also maybe the “good ole boy” mentality exists in more than just police departments. Isn’t it shocking how often vidoes/cell phone pictures/etc are showing police brutality, etc?
May 27, 2008 at 10:29 am
This is a bit of a tangent, but it deals directly with the issue of abuse of power.
There is a WONDERFUL Memorial Day post on By Common Consent that addresses the CPS / Correction Officer issue beautifully. The link is:
http://www.bycommonconsent.com/2008/05/memorial-day-the-costs-of-war-and-those-who-bear-them/
May 27, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Ray #28,
Thanks for the link – that article really touched my soul! I particularly agree that:
“One eternal truth is this: Satan is real. He seeks to dominate the souls of men with chaos, darkness, and terror. He loves despots that use fear to dominate millions, or a single, handcuffed soul that sits before him. I’m sure Satan uses war to callous many people to grievous sins against each other.”
In reality, there are many ways by which one human dominates another. Right now I’m dealing with a situation wherein a lawyer is enjoying and abusing his power.
May 28, 2008 at 1:12 pm
Congratulations on a well thought out blog. I have written an article regarding the Texas Court of Appeals case that your readers may find interesting.
http://www.johntfloyd.com/comments/may08/25a.htm
May 29, 2008 at 2:34 pm
Hey, Guy–the Supreme Court of Texas just upheld the Court of Appeals.
May 29, 2008 at 2:47 pm
JimD, Thanks, I’m working on that post as we type.
May 29, 2008 at 2:50 pm
Thanks for the heads-up, JimD. I’m eagerly awaiting Guy’s post now.
The Constitution may be on life support in Texas, but it is responding to treatment!
May 29, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Wonderful news!
May 29, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Are there going to be any pools on how much the State is going to have to pay in lawsuits? 468 X $10,000,000?
Hope the legislature puts that in the ol’ budget!
May 31, 2008 at 8:04 am
That sadistic excuse for a judge still refuses to return the children even after the supreme court ruling
January 4, 2009 at 10:11 am
Well I disagree, with those that disagree!
I have 700 hours of Warren Jeffs instructions and if you knew all that was taught, you might think different!
As far as Liar Rodney Parker goes, he told News anchor Larry Warren of Salt Lake City that there were no underage marriages!
In March of 2001 Mr. Parker on Letterhead threatened me for reporting child sexual abuse! As the child abuse prevention rep. of FOR KIDS SAKE, I was doing my mandated job and I had clients.
The many illegal unions performed at the Caliente Hot Springs in Nevada, that violated the Mann Act, became Warrens defense in court that the illegal sexual intercourse had occured ooutside of AZ & UT, that is simply court record now!
Warren’s words as prophet and seer is absolute and undenyable by ALL who lived at YFZ ranch. If you seek the TRUTH, take some time to read Warrens Text and hear his racist and sometimes violent predictions. The Southern Poverty Law Center has deemed the FLDS a hate group, not that any of you have taken the time to research this.
The biggest danger may well be Warren’s match making as the FLDS have the highest rate in the world of Fumarase Disease which causes severe RETARDATION, from imbred genes!
Lets see some serious journalistic research here.
fincenMIB or
Shame on the Tribune?
on the blogs
January 4, 2009 at 10:26 am
The truth is there are 2 factions posting in support of the FLDS. Those who believe in Warren Jeffs, that were given permission to use the internet to defend the faith
and
Constitutionalist = Posse Comitatus
Those who believe in survivalism and localism, believing the federal government is always wrong and that there is a conspiracy around every corner. The same for state intervention. They believe each local area or group should have atonomy to self rule. This ideology would allow fanatics to live their lives left alone.
McVeigh & Nichols believed in localism, which allowed them the justification to kill children and plant a bomb as a message to that evil government. Some masquerade under the reinvented KKK now the “Christian Identity Movement” where like Jeffs, teachings racism is carefully packaged and disguised. These are the same who now defend Warren Jeffs FLDS right to impregnate children under religious freedom.
These are also the same people that are rumbling threats on the internet today, about the election of a black president.
Will they follow McVeigh? Please leave your name when you exit this chat room!