So proclaims Paul Mero, President of the Sutherland Institute, a conservative think tank in Utah. And, he’s referring to the two sides in the so called “gay rights” debate, one that encompases the most basic of civil rights and the so called fundamental right to genderless marriage. The Salt Lake Tribune published Mero’s thoughts in an article entitled Too Complicated to find Common Ground. Apparently Mr. Mero and some Equality Utah folks (I love the names of these organizations) have been having an ongoing series of debates, either through email and/or in an actual physical face off, where, as the article describes, the gloves came off:
Four months later, Mero warned the crowd at his debate with Equality Utah members at the University of Utah Law School that he might be offensive, or, as he put it, “intentionally provocative.”
And he was. He said gay and transgendered people come from a “very immature emotional frame of reference,” pick from a menu of “umpteen” gender options, “play house,” live an “illusion.”
“The gloves must come off,” he said.
The question is: Why?
Proposition 8, apparently.
It seems Proposition 8 has taken on a life of its own. Of course, the best time to have had this debate was before last November–but still it rages on–even in the most socially and religiously conservative of venues, Utah. I don’t know exactly what to make of Mr. Mero’s words. They do seem harsh–but perhaps it’s because since Proposition 8 and the incredibly infantile response by some fringe elements of the “gay community” some folks have been afraid to speak their mind. And, certainly the intent of the unprecedented response to Proposition 8′s passage was to have a chilling effect on people who have a difference of opinion with those who champion genderless marriage as a basic fundamental constitutional right.
Despite his harshness, I think there are grains of truth in what he says. And, frankly his speech is just as constitutionally protected, if not more so than some the Proposition 8 aftermath that passed for political protest and speech. And, it was this aftermath that has disturbed Mr. Mero:
Angry about the gay community’s protests, boycotts and “extortion” of the LDS Church, Mero turned condescending and nasty, steaming with the emotion he so despises in the other side. Still, the next day, he sent an e-mail to his opponents inviting them to “continue to talk.”
Mero insists his behavior is consistent. He’s a self-styled compassionate conservative who thrives on heady debate with the other side. Certainly not a homophobe or a “gay-hater.”
But you’ll understand if gay-rights activists feel burned.
“The anti-church stuff after Prop 8 really set him off,” says Sen. Scott McCoy, a Salt Lake City Democrat. “He is like a totally different person.” . . .
Mero’s theory turns on the question: Does it benefit society? As in: Gay sex doesn’t benefit society, so there’s no point in debating gay rights.
Well, so there you have it: Separate realities and no common ground. The more I see this “debate” play out, the more accurate that characterization seems to become.
March 1, 2009 at 12:08 am
Are you serious, after the “extortion” letter sent out by the protect marriage crowd, including an LDS representative, the massive amounts of money raised by the Mormon church, the ads funded in some large extent by the LDS at least implicitly depicting members of the gay community as a threat to children and common decency, etc, etc., etc., this gentleman is furious because of what exactly? Because “it” doesn’t benefit society; what is he talking about? Why not?
March 1, 2009 at 12:49 am
Djinn – your comment perfectly illustrates why there can be NO common ground between our two sides. You maliciously characterize the Church’s pastoral letter to California as “extortion”, and you falsely claim that the “Church” raised massive amounts of money, when it was the individual members who actually raised the money.
When you have completely different definitions for the same words and concepts, no dialog is either possible or desirable. And considering that gays only constitute three percent of the population, we understandably have no coercive pressure upon us to engage in dialog with you.
I’m with Chris Buttars on this issue 100 percent.
March 1, 2009 at 1:09 am
I think too often we play lip service to the scriptures, and don’t really believe that wickedness never was happiness. We want to believe that in some cases it might actually be happiness, and not harmful. We can tell ourselves this, but this is just so much mortal justification. In our zeal to love our neighbors, we do greater disservice by defending instead of gently correcting.
Now, this Mero guy – He doesn’t realize it, but in his zeal, he is only making thing worse. He is not being a good example.
March 1, 2009 at 4:10 am
The Jack Mormon: Your comment perfectly illustrates your complete ignorance. Djinn is obviously talking about the letter sent by four members of the ProtectMarriage.com executive committee to companies which donated to No On 8, “requesting” they make an in-kind contribution to Yes On 8, lest they be blacklisted as opponents of “traditional marriage.” Don’t believe me? Read the story here: http://news.lavenderliberal.com/2008/10/24/courage-campaign-condemns-proposition-8-blackmail-letter/ — or better yet, Google it. I dare you to let this comment stand — and I challenge you to retract your accustaion of “malicious characterization”. You are in the wrong here, and you should own up to you error.
March 1, 2009 at 6:11 am
Protect marriage sent one letter to a few large company asking them to give to both side. I do not know what they expected.
It is so minuscule in comparaison to what the NO on 8 supporters are doing. There is not even a comparaison. I found it interesting that a company like AT&T who support the Gay Agenda and black mail their own suppliers that supported Prop 8 is a sponsor of the CPAC event in Washington DC this week.Their heart is with NO on 8 but their pocket book is with every body else.
In my opinion ss marriage is totally sexist and cruel to children. It should be rejected by people of common sense.
March 1, 2009 at 7:10 am
Ah, the rose-colored glasses of two sides of a debate. I wonder whether, in the end, historians will fall on the side of the Native Americans or the Europeans? Oh wait, I mean the first race of settlers or the second race of settlers? Oh wait, maybe the third race of settlers (the Europeans). . . dang it, nothing comes out right (been reading too much ‘Lies My Teacher Told Me.’ Maybe historians will remember the meekest in this debate, or the losers the best?
Alma had it right, and good thing it’s point out the BoM is for our day, else we’d relegate it to the same limiting frame as the Bible. Sad.
March 1, 2009 at 8:38 am
Paul Mero is Chris Buttars with a better tailor. Beware of basing any opinion — even so much as a preferance for paper over plastic — on the wisdom and behavior of Paul Mero.
March 1, 2009 at 10:51 am
Wow. Just wow.
March 1, 2009 at 10:53 am
“The Church” raised the money, the individual members donated it.
March 1, 2009 at 11:09 am
ProtectMarriage letter sent to 30 companies, in part:
“Make a donation of a like amount to ProtectMarriage.com which will help us correct this error. Were you to elect not to donate comparably, it would be a clear indication that you are in opposition to traditional marriage. … The names of any companies and organizations that choose not to donate in like manner to ProtectMarriage.com but have given to Equality California will be published.”
See that “opposition to traditional marriage” and the “will be published” part? Your point, various commentators is, may I paraphrase, “Oh, ha ha ha, that little thing , doesn’t count, uh, because …… uh–he was mean to me too!”
Please.
March 1, 2009 at 11:32 am
I’m not really sure what the point of the post is, Guy. I have avoided bringing up the Common Ground Initiative with you in the past because you hadn’t taken a position on it one way or the other. But you really are obscuring what Paul Mero is talking about here.
When Mero says there is no common ground, he is talking about, not marriage rights, but rather bills that would protect people from being fired from their jobs or from being denied a place to live based on their sexual orientation. He is opposing allowing a person who has a financially dependent relationship with someone from having standing to sue if the person he or she is financially dependent on is wrongfully killed, or being able to be covered under that person’s health care plan. These are not radical ideas that Mero is opposing; they are reasonable and decent policies.
So, my question: does your citation of Mero mean that you agree with him? If so, why? While we disagree on the marriage issue, and I don’t expect you to come out in full-throated support of the common ground initiative, I assumed that you wouldn’t actively oppose protections short of marriage. The Church drew a line between marriage and legislative protections that would improve people’s lives and protect settled expectations. I hope that the Prop 8 battle hasn’t caused you to lose the ability to differentiate between those things.
March 1, 2009 at 4:05 pm
I hope that the Prop 8 battle hasn’t caused you to lose the ability to differentiate between those things.
It’s a matter of self-justification on Guy’s part, Nate. He worked hard to see that gays and lesbians were stripped of a then-existing fundamental right under the California state constitution. Since Guy sees himself as a fair and decent person, he needs to reassure himself that his actions were in line with that self-perception. One easy way to do that is to energetically villify gays and lesbians at every opportunity—not to convince others, but rather to convince himself that he was only doing what was “necessary” for the preservation of all humanity. That’s why he’s unable or unwilling to acknowledge a single incident where gays and lesbians were victimized–doing so would weaken the case he’s built to convince an all-important jury of one, i.e., himself.
March 1, 2009 at 4:44 pm
That’s right, Nick. Offer such a ridiculously over-the-top summary that you lose all credibility and any possibility of support. Make Guy’s point for him, why don’t you?
March 1, 2009 at 5:03 pm
Same-sex marriage is sexist and cruel to children? I suppose you support teaching women that they should be subservient to men, mere brood sows, and chained to the home as little housemaids. In turn men are the rulers of all and practical owners of women, their mental and physical inferiors. Don’t forget to beat them if they act the least bit “feminine”. No girlymen allowed.
So which form of marriage is sexist and cruel to children?
March 1, 2009 at 5:12 pm
My tone here is harsher than I would prefer; however the quotes by Paul Mero are shamefully cruel and harsh. And horrible. I can’t believe anyone with a hint of kindness would support them. I also notice that no one has actually accused the “No on 8″ people of anything except, what, exactly?
March 1, 2009 at 9:23 pm
Nate W #11
I’m not so sure; but, I don’t know, really what Mero is talking about. I found the article intriguing. I found some of his rhetoric harsh, as I admitted in the main post. But, I do believe–regardless of what Mero believes, that ultimately this is not about the basic rights you describe. Ultimately it is not even about the so called fundamental right to genderless marriage. Rather, (and I have said this for a long, long time) this is about societal acceptance. The LGBT community seeks this societal acceptance by whatever legal means they might have available.
In some communities that may mean common ground initiatives. In others, it may mean domestic partnerships. And, in the extreme minority of jurisdictions it may mean marriage itself. I believe the LGBT community will continue their quest for societal acceptance of their lifestyle no holds barred–using whatever means available–even absurd boycotts.
On this limited point, and only this point, (marriage) I agree with Mero. I too am in a separate reality, and there is no common ground. Because there is no circumstance in which I will accept genderless marriage or the the lifestyle. As I said in the other thread, I have no problem with the basic legal protections against being fired, being able to leave personal and real property to significant others, and even allow hospital visitation rights. But, under no circumstance do I ever envision a total, complete acceptance of the lifestyle.
No, I do not agree in all respects with Mero. I think I have addressed the limited degree to which I agree with his invocation of separate reality and common ground–marriage only. I don’t have a position one way or the other on whether Utah passes their common ground initiative. I am happy to leave that up to the majority of Utah voters. I think that is a legitimate legislative or direct initiative function–not a judicial one, however.
As an officer of the Court in CA, I do not oppose legal protections short of marriage; however, as I said above, and I think CA’s experience confirms this–the LGBT community seeks total societal acceptance. And, they will use domestic partnerships as a step along the way toward eventually legalizing marriage, and then hopefully societal acceptance. This is a concept with which I will never agree.
March 1, 2009 at 9:31 pm
djinn #15:
If you have read my blog at all, including this post you will have seen links to much of the questionable tactics of the “No” side.
March 1, 2009 at 9:58 pm
If the Salt Lake Tribune article is an accurate summary (which I have some reason to doubt), Mr. Mero’s statements are an embarrassment for the president of an organization that claims to be a think tank. We have more substantive discussions around here all the time.
I also find it curious that a think tank would hire someone as its leader who apparently admits that his conservatism is more a matter of tradition than principle.
March 1, 2009 at 11:24 pm
Why are you posting this if you don’t know what he’s talking about? This has been in the news in Utah for months. You’ve posted on the Common Ground Initiative before. The article refers to Mero’s “sacred ground initiative.” It beggars belief that you don’t know the context of the remarks he’s making. However, if you really don’t, I suggest you do your due diligence before posting. Associating your blog with the likes of Paul Mero and Gayle Ruzicka will not help you win the argument.
March 2, 2009 at 7:28 am
Matt #19:
Meaning, I don’t know what he is thinking–what’s going on in his mind in terms of the scope. Does he mean separate realities no common ground for registered domestic partnership statutory schemes–or marriage, or what? I think I’ve clarified sufficiently where I am on that, and where I agree and disagree with Mr. Mero.
Regardless of your viewpoint of Mr. Mero, his ideas merit discussion, as do yours, mine, and others.
March 2, 2009 at 12:32 pm
This is why it is so difficult to to to any real solution on some of these issues. Accusations and finger pointing will never solve anything. Being this angry becasue someone disagrees with you is in itself the same thing you are against.
For anyone that thought prop 8 is over or that anything was resolved you are completely naive and have a fundemental lack of understanding of the way humans think. This will continue to be an issue until those hardliners on both sides lighten up and move to the some sort of mutually agreed upon solution.
March 2, 2009 at 1:01 pm
Why wait for equality? Why beg and plead for it?
National Equality Tax Revolt –
Amend the Civil Rights Act of 1964 to include Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity, and Gender Expression!
REVOLT – Wednesday, April 15, 2009
Period.
March 2, 2009 at 5:29 pm
I’ve read your posts: “Tolerance.” Mean mean people held up mean mean signs and briefly protested a restaurant with a mainly gay clientele in West Hollywood and a large car dealership here in Utah. Mean mean mean. Oh, and some easily removed graffiti.
For this, the hate, above, that you only sorta kinda maybe hem hem hem hem try to distance yourself from?
March 2, 2009 at 11:52 pm
Actually, in retrospect, you post the inflammatory remarks, above, and then try to daintily hide behind some non-existent apron, i.e., “His (referring to Mr. Mero) ideas merit discussion.” His ideas seem to consist, solely, of calling a subset of humans very bad people, as per the quote below. What is there to argue about? He’s wrong. People are BORN GAY. So are many other creatures, large and small, whether he likes it or not. For this they should be, uh, I notice he shys away, delicately, again, for stating persecution, but he strongly suggests it. Nice.
More Mero:
“Your idea of rights is an illusion. With the backing of every miserable misanthropic philosopher on the path of the post enlightenment era, your initiative feeds on the unreasonable notion that you have these magical organic rights to do whatever you desire,” said Paul Mero, Sutherland Institute
Mero also said Sutherland Institute doesn’t just disagree with the idea for gay rights; it disagrees with every assumption underlying the gay rights initiatives. “Your idea of rights is an illusion. With the backing of every miserable misanthropic philosopher on the path of the post enlightenment era, your initiative feeds on the unreasonable notion that you have these magical organic rights to do whatever you desire,” said Paul Mero, Sutherland Institute
Mero also said Sutherland Institute doesn’t just disagree with the idea for gay rights; it disagrees with every assumption underlying the gay rights initiatives.”
March 3, 2009 at 12:40 am
I found some more Paul Mero, quoted below.
“We disagree not only with your views, but with every motivation that goes into those bills” Paul started off with ,talking about the C.G.I. bills and their creators. He went on to state that finding any common ground “is impossible.” The LGBTQ community is apparently living in Neverland, as “Sexual orientation is an illusion…your [the LGBTQ community] idea of rights is an illusion,” Paul said to gasps of shock from the crowd. “You think a piece of paper, will make you a family.. You think that love makes you a family.” According to Mr. Mero, only having generations makes a true family. Anyone else, just doesn’t count.”
If Mr. Mero says a group of people simply shouldn’t exist, what is there to argue about, except to loudly disagree?
March 3, 2009 at 2:06 am
In so far as has been reported here, It doesn’t appear Mr. Mero has made anything resembling an argument, just a collection of apparently purposely inflammatory statements.
With rhetoric like that he sets back whatever his position is every time he opens his mouth. A spokesman for a national think tank of any conservative stripe would lose his position in a heart beat with repeated language like that, no matter how well reasoned his underlying argument was. From what has been quoted here so far, I can’t be sure if Mr. Mero reasons at all.
March 3, 2009 at 7:59 am
djinn:
As I’ve already said, the only concept from Mero’s quotes with which I agree is the idea that there may be two separate realities without common ground, as it relates only to the marriage debate. I think this is true for many people. You are never going to change your position that you are entitled as a fundamental right to marry who you want, regardless of gender. I am never going to change my position that you are not. You and I (and others), on this specific issue, are living in separate realities and we don’t have common ground on that issue.
Mero’s other ideas as encapsulated in his quotes are not only harsh, they are in fact reprehensible. I have not agreed with them in the past. I don’t agree with them now. I don’t advocate discrimination based on sexual orientation in the work place, or in any other endeavor as protected by many states’ domestic partnership laws (including the state where I practice law).
It appears, from what I have read about Mero, that he and I would disagree here as well. Hope this helps clarify for you what my beliefs are.
Thanks for your comments.
March 4, 2009 at 9:52 pm
Guy, is it your duty as an officer of the court of California to ensure that the rights of all are respected and protected?
Article I, Section 1 of our constitution states that “all people are by nature free and independent and have inalienable rights” and “among these are enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing, and protecting property, and pursuing and obtaining safety, happiness, and privacy.”
Jerry Brown stated today on the DailyKos, “In 2008, the California Supreme Court was faced with the question of how the values enshrined in Article I apply to same sex marriages. It concluded that the concept of “liberty” includes the right to form the enduring relationship called marriage and that no compelling interest justified denying this right to same sex couples. Just like the right to be free from discrimination in housing, citizens have the right to be free from discrimination in state-granted marriage licenses.
I believe that it is the right of all of us to marry the person of our choice. We don’t allow individuals to choose for us; it would be outrageous if someone designated whom you should marry.
As mormons we can keep our beliefs that you shouldn’t shop on Sunday and you shouldn’t smoke and drink and a man shouldn’t marry a man, but since we also ‘claim the privilege of worshiping God according to the dictates of our consciences and allow all men (and women) the same privilege–let them worship how, where and what they may,’ let them believe what they may; let them marry how them may.
March 6, 2009 at 9:26 am
I completely disagree with Mero’s idea that there may be two separate realities without common ground, as it relates to the marriage debate. Sorry, but when the Church has been urging civility, and greater tolerance for the past year in their press releases, and even longer in General Conference talks—
There are no enemies–and us v. them in the Prop 8 Debate. There’s just people, brothers and sisters on both sides.
Both sides have behaved badly, but when you start attacking behavior instead of the principles s, that’s called an ad-hominem.
March 6, 2009 at 10:59 am
Sherpa #29
One can be civil and still believe there are two separate realities without common ground as it relates to the single concept that the Church should accept genderless marriage. And, I agree with all you have said about what the Church has urged; however, as I understand the Church teaching on the subject of marriage–which I think is extremely clear:
As I understand these teachings from the Brethren, they are fundamental teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is simply no room, at all, for genderless marriage in the Church–no exceptions now, or ever.
I have not read anything, ever, from proponents of genderless marriage that suggests they are willing to accept these notions of marriage. And, I understand they have no legal right to have to do so; but, that to me confirms that on certain core teachings and issues as they relate to marriage and family, there are in fact two separate realities without common ground.
Despite these differences, however, I think we can and ought to be brothers and sisters. And, I think we can all improve our behavior.
Thanks for your thoughts.
March 9, 2009 at 6:59 am
Wow Guy, I didn’t realize I was going to get preached to. I didn’t realize we were talking about Genderless marriage in the Church, I thought this thread was about Proposition 8 and genderless marriage in society.
Personally, I don’t see it as the church being forced to accept genderless marriage at this time. You may try to convince me otherwise, but I’d appreciate it if you didn’t.
Seriously, you’re tweaking my comment into something it’s not.
Wow. But that being said, I still think both sides can find common ground. There is common ground, and the only reason that there’s no separate ground between the two sides, is because some individuals on both sides lose sight of the fact that there are some things greater than their cause. The golden rule trumps it.
November 13, 2009 at 1:22 am
Paul Mero Splits From The LDS Church … over the issue of SLC nondiscrimination ordinances.
Conservative Utahns abandoning LDS faith, flocking to new Meronite offshoot of Mormonism
Full story at the link:
http://bit.ly/3OTKze