(Update 04/09/09 7:15 a.m. Kaimi has apparently responded, appropriately over at Adam’s new blog. I’ve closed comments on this thread, and don’t have anything more to say–but wanted to link to Kaimi’s response).
The “Truth Will Prevail” motto appears to be going through some tough times over there at Times and Seasons. Adam Greenwood–one of the original founding members of the blog has now resigned, and opened shop over at Junior Ganymede. Most troubling, however, is his post relating why he has resigned from Times and Seasons. It’s only one side of the story; but, on its face it’s a troubling story–and there appear to be some facts and links in support. It’s a bit saddening for me, because my first initiation to the “Bloggernacle” was through Times and Seasons, many years ago. It appeared to be place where the Spirit and the Intellect co-existed in harmony–and all those really, really smart kids on the block–with all that higher education–appeared to all be very, very faithful Latter-day Saints. (And, I’m not suggesting any, some or all aren’t–that’s not my job). It is a bit saddening to read all is/was not at all well in Times and Seasons paradise. I wish them well over there, and hope they work through it all. And, Adam Greenwood–best of luck to you in your new endeavor.
April 8, 2009 at 10:26 am
Ditto
April 8, 2009 at 10:30 am
I was afraid something like this would happen. I wonder how often this happens at other blogs in the bloggernacle?
April 8, 2009 at 10:44 am
[...] best kind of spaz-out, the total, batshit, burn all the bridges kind. « [...]
April 8, 2009 at 11:20 am
you realize he linked to your blog here with the word “bats***”
Methinks the problem is with Adam Greenwood and not with the other bloggers at Times and Seasons. The dude has many issues, and cannot tolerate dissenting views. He gets angry and lashes out when people dare show even the slightest criticism of the Church, even if some of that criticism is warranted.
I think Times and Seasons worked well with someone like him there, and I hope they find someone to replace him that will be more tolerant of others.
April 8, 2009 at 11:36 am
I think Times and Seasons loses needed balance with Adam’s leaving, but I respect Adam for knowing when to jump off of a sinking ship. Many of the administrators at both BCC and T&S share Adam’s intolerance with dissenting viewpoints, and additionally become angry and lash out at people who share a loyalty for the church they themselves do not have. I respect Adam G. and Guy Murray. You guys rock!
April 8, 2009 at 11:43 am
Be very, very cautious in passing judgment against T&S based on a single appallingly bad-tasting post, Guy, et al.
April 8, 2009 at 1:40 pm
There. Are. No. Words….
Best comment on this “issue” is from Dan…
April 8, 2009 at 2:05 pm
I don’t think it’s that complicated. Greenwood found out where KW–who has been passing himself off as a faithful Mormon–truly stands and what his motivations are. He concluded that it was inappropriate for KW to be a perma on an ostensibly “faithful” Mormon blog.
The majority of the permas at T&S disagreed.
For myself, I’m just glad KW has been (pardon the expression) “outed”. He had me going there for a while–I was almost convinced that his opinion that gay marriage and free exercise of the LDS religion will be compatible over the long term.
Now I realize that the welfare of the LDS church was the farthest thing from KW’s mind.
April 8, 2009 at 2:32 pm
And you condemn a brother with evidence from a one-sided, self-serving, exaggerated, overblown, and lying post? and do it under a PSEUDONYM?
Your jugment and your words are worth less than spit.
April 8, 2009 at 2:41 pm
Are the posts to the DAMU boards under the name of “Cafeteria Mormon” those of KW, or aren’t they?
April 8, 2009 at 2:53 pm
“you realize he linked to your blog here with the word “bats***””
Dan-o,
that’s a trackback from the Bloggernacle Burner.
Uh-uh,
they are. Had it from the horse’s mouth.
AEP,
you need to stop accepting blindly everything I say as the last word. Geez, question authority.
April 8, 2009 at 2:56 pm
I have to agree with Daniel here, I also think Times and Seasons deserves better than the rantings of a a guy that went into many discussions half-cocked just hoping to pounce on and mock anyone that disagreed with his views. He’s intolerant and probably loves that people say that with the strong martyr complex he holds.
Good riddance I say. At one time his thoughtful posts made me love that site, but in the past couple of years his posts have become a place for him to rant before closing comments. He’s not interested in a site that has discussion, he’s interested in a billboard for himself to scream at people that he disagrees with, and doesn’t have to hear the other side.
April 8, 2009 at 3:16 pm
I don’t keep track well enough to know the extent of Adam’s overreacting to differing views. However, it seems to me that if Times and Seasons claims to discuss things of interest to “faithful Latter Day Saints” it has a warped idea of what being faithful means. I appreciated his story in why he left a blog that contains bloggers that are so against the church.
April 8, 2009 at 3:19 pm
I can’t HEAR you, Jeremy. My fingers are in my ears. La la la la la.
April 8, 2009 at 3:26 pm
Adam,
Yes. But I went to that site, and you linked Guy’s Messenger and Advocate to the word “bats***” Go see yourself. I just wanted Guy to know the kind of guy he is defending here. One who links Guy’s own blog with a swear word.
April 8, 2009 at 3:35 pm
jks (12), I think you are buying into some overreactions. While I was not yet a blogger at T&S when the events in question happened last April, I’ve gone through all the posts involved, and I think the reactions have been overblown.
At the least, the idea that T&S has “bloggers that are so against the church” is false. At most there is one blogger who has ambiguous feelings about elements of LDS doctrine. As far as I can tell, the rest of us are very committed to the Church.
April 8, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Are we done gazing at the belly button lint in our navels?
April 8, 2009 at 3:53 pm
Ok, I guess there is a lot of lint to gaze at…just read Adam’s post. Carry on.
April 8, 2009 at 3:53 pm
If anyone here has problems, it’s “Daniel” – who seems to think Adam is the Back Burner or approves of the site.
Daniel – from your behavior, it’s clear you’re the one with anger issues. In fact, I’ve seen you use equivalent cuss words over at Mormon Mentality and Millennial Star. What’s your problem?
April 8, 2009 at 4:13 pm
Dan-o,
I can see why you think I’m associated with the Bloggeracle Back Burner site, since it has my name up in a way that makes me look like an author, but that’s actually just the title of the post. I have no affiliation with the Back Burner, though the loss is mine, I’m sure.
April 8, 2009 at 4:14 pm
At the least, the idea that T&S has “bloggers that are so against the church” is false. At most there is one blogger who has ambiguous feelings about elements of LDS doctrine. As far as I can tell, the rest of us are very committed to the Church.
Agreed. NB.
April 8, 2009 at 4:30 pm
“At most there is one blogger who has ambiguous feelings about elements of LDS doctrine.”
Really?
April 8, 2009 at 4:36 pm
Thanks for the clarification. I’m not familiar with Back Burner, so it was a safe assumption to conclude that that was Adam’s post, seeing his name brightly next to the picture with no other indication of who else could have written it. My mistake.
April 8, 2009 at 7:13 pm
Arids #6
I’m not passing judgment, Ardis–and I’m trying to be cautious; but, it seems a bit disingenuous of Kaimi to hold himself out as one thing, when in reality it appears he is believing something entirely different as evidenced by his writings. I’ve read several of the links Adam posted on his site. They are disturbing.
Adam claims Kaimi is the person who blogged under the anonymous name of Cafeteria Mormon–at web sites less than favorable to the Church. Kaimi should either confirm this, or outright deny it–and be done with it.
T&S’ own comment user policies in relevant part states:
If T & S is a forum for believing members, then it follows its perma bloggers ought to be believing members. If Kaimi is the “Cafeteria Mormon”, and if he wrote what is attributed to him, I have a hard time understanding how those writings reflect a “believing member.” To me, not believing the historicity of the Book of Mormon takes one outside the category of a “believing member.”
If one describes the doctrine of male priesthood authority as “patriarchal bullshit” that takes one outside the category of a “believing member.” There are certain core doctrines that I think a “believing member” needs to accept. One of the most core would be a belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon. If Kaimi has in fact written what is attributed to him, then I have a hard time accepting him as a “believing member.”
Now, whether T&S as a matter of blog policy decides to promote, maintain, or tolerate perma bloggers whose doctrinal beliefs are akin to what is attributed to Kaimi, then I think that calls into question whether in fact T&S can claim it is a forum for believing members.
That said, I don’t know whether Kaimi confessed to Adam he is/was the Cafeteria Mormon who wrote the things that appears on those less than favorable to Mormonism websites. I can only take Adam’s word for it; but, if Kaimi refuses to rebut or deny these allegations, I am going to tend to believe Adam is telling the truth.
Ardis #8
Did Kaimi not blog under a pseudonym of Cafeteria Mormon, blogging about beliefs that clearly are not in harmony with traditional core Mormon beliefs? I have always had a problem with anonymous blogging–others clearly do not. What parts of Adam’s posts were lies? I’m certainly receptive to reading anything you have to suggest that Adam is not telling the truth. Please provide links or other sources we might consider to get a more full picture of some of your allegations.
Kent #15
I think all the perma bloggers at T & S are very faithful members of the Church and believe its fundamental core doctrines. But, to characterize Kaimi as one who has ambiguous feelings, if in fact Kaimi’s feelings are truly reflected in the writings of Cafeteria Mormon–is an extremely generous characterization. Based on what evidence is available, Kaimi does not fit the definition of a perma blogger at a blog which defines itself as a place where “faithful believers” can have discourse. And, it’s not just a blog, Times and Seasons is in many ways a face for the Mormon faith on the Internet. The LDS Newsroom has linked, on more than one occasion to Times and Seasons.
I think Kaimi as some splannin’ to do here. Either Kaimi is the “Cafeteria Mormon” and does not believe many core and fundamental doctrines required of a faithful member, or Adam has lied about him–in which case Kaimi should publicly and loudly publish his disclaimer.
I for one am waiting.
April 8, 2009 at 8:40 pm
Is #9 Ardis Parshall or another Ardis (I know another exists. If it is, I’m disappointed in the comment. If not, I’ll disregard the comment.
Couple things Ardis.
Adam admitted his post is one-sided. And Kaimi is free to post his side of the story. Many of us have been observing the comments from some of the more liberal factions of the bloggernacle with consternation for awhile. I personally have felt many bloggers were trying to lead the church astray (even, unwittingly), and I have felt the same way of many of Kaimi’s comments in the past. I am grateful for Adam’s post to know that some of my suspicions may have some validity.
“lying post” this better not be the real Ardis (P).
“pseudonym”. Well how does the high and mighty viewpoint come from? As long as you stick up for (possible apostates) it’s OK to put others down?
April 8, 2009 at 8:46 pm
I appreciate all the sturm und drang from an aesthetic point of view, but I also wonder why folks take my resignation from T&S more seriously than I take it, which on the evidence is not very? Its just blogging, after all.
Yes, an apostle has commended Mormon blogging. But apostles have also commended active participation in your local water board.
April 8, 2009 at 8:47 pm
This would hardly be the first time KW used T&S to misrepresent something…
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2005/10/blogging-lying-and-legal-theory/
see comment 89.
It does, however, given new insight into his often belittling responses to those who have defended the church and orthodox stances.
April 8, 2009 at 9:00 pm
Wow, TMD, nice one.
April 8, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Adam at 26, I think you’re being a bit disingenuous. Though to a lesser degree, for some people this is like the BoH thing. There was a sense of trust in the community–that though there were honest disagreements, we were all on the same team. And as was the case in the BoH reveal, your statement on the matter suggests that the trust in the context (i.e, T&S) was misplaced. That seems, in fact, to have been your response as well. So your surprise seems misplaced.
April 9, 2009 at 6:49 pm
[...] is one of his co-bloggers, Kaimi Wenger…a fraternizer with the enemy. And even in comments sympathetic to Adam’s cause, I see scathing disdain or even rebuke for more liberal members. Wow. [...]
April 10, 2009 at 4:41 pm
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