John Dehlin, in his never ending class act at self promotion and denigration of any who dare criticize his methods, keeping it classy over at his Mormon Stories Facebook page with this latest post:
I know I should be charitable toward you, John. You’re a “brother” in the Community of Saints. I should refrain from the “ad hominem” attacks you are so fond of flinging at anyone who dares criticize anything you do. But, I just gotta say, John: The reality is I’m the weakest of those who are or who can be called a Saint. I’m the guy who Benjamin had exactly in mind when he wrote Mosiah 3:19. So, you’ll just have to excuse my own classless characterization of you. I just think you’re a pathetic prick . . . (More of the Facebook Comments from the Mormon Stories Facebook Page below the fold)
And More:
July 2, 2012 at 8:27 am
So Dehlin is now looking to increase his ranks by inviting members of strong LDS families to become fellow apostates? I wish the Church would hurry up and excommunicate him, as he is clearly encouraging someone here to do betray her faith in the Church and her family. I do agree with you that he’s pathetic. I don’t use cuss words, so I’d have to find another noun to describe him: jerk?
July 2, 2012 at 11:05 am
I’m not a fan of excommunication for what people think or what they say. Otherwise, I agree . . .
July 2, 2012 at 8:28 am
Speaking of ad hominem attacks — John’s statement is a classless smear. He also wants to enlist others in smearing a really decent and bright person who wrote a very intelligent commentary on his site. His conduct is becoming more and more bizarre. What is going on?
July 2, 2012 at 11:06 am
“Classless Smear” Yeah, pretty much, as are the comments that post is generating, which is why I posted it and the comments . . .
July 2, 2012 at 8:29 am
Hoooo-eee, this is sure to stir up a beehive of the Dehlinites. But you are right. The Schadenfreude here is just sick.
July 2, 2012 at 11:06 am
It is what it is . .
July 2, 2012 at 9:37 am
I agree that public figures (like John) have to develop thick skins. Some times the Church’s own policy of silence as a response to criticisms or insult is the best one. Jesus even used that policy some times. I am not quite sure why Rameumpton would excommunicate John. I hope Rameumptom is speaking tongue in cheek. I believe in a Church of free expression of views like those in mormonstories and those in the former FARMS review. I don’t agree with John D. or Dan P., for that matter) on a fair number of important matters, but I respect and like them both.
July 2, 2012 at 11:08 am
I also disagree on the excommunication aspect–though if John is no longer a believer he ought just come out and say so–if he hasn’t already
July 2, 2012 at 10:23 am
I think there are too many Mormons in the Church, who do not believe, but stay for ulterior motives. Dehlin is one of them. I have no problem with members who are inactive, but believe. I don’t have a problem with someone struggling with their beliefs, and quietly seeking real answers to them. I DO have a problem with Dehlin setting up an “innocent” looking group of stories that move from neutral to negative towards the Church. He is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. If he wants to upset and attack the Church, he has that right – from the outside.
July 2, 2012 at 11:07 am
The innocent that move from neutral to negative is problematic, I agree
July 2, 2012 at 10:33 am
I haven’t commented here before, I hope this comment is not too unwelcome.
The apologist/Mormon Stories issues seem to be drawing lots of people into a place where it is hard to resist feelings of anger or judgment. I have been pretty surprised to see how dismissive and judgmental things have become from many different directions.
Whatever different people are feeling and saying, it seems like Pres. Uchtdorf’s talk turned out to be pretty timely:
“We simply have to stop judging others and replace judgmental thoughts and feelings with a heart full of love for God and His children,” said President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, second counselor in the First Presidency in his address Sunday morning.
“This topic of judging others could actually be taught in a two-word sermon,” he said. “When it comes to hating, gossiping, ignoring, ridiculing, holding grudges or wanting to cause harm — please apply the following: Stop it!” Strained and broken relationships are as old as humankind itself. “I imagine that every person on earth has been affected in some way by the destructive spirit of contention, resentment and revenge. Perhaps there are even times when we recognize this spirit in ourselves. When we feel hurt, angry or envious it is quite easy to judge other people, often assigning dark motives to their actions in order to justify our own feelings of resentment. Of course, we know this is wrong.”
President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, second counselor in the First Presidency
President Uchtdorf said the minute “we judge others, we condemn ourselves.”
Of course, living up to these teachings is a challenge for us all, myself included.
July 2, 2012 at 11:09 am
I am likewise challenged, Paul. All comments are welcome, whether I agree with them or not. And, I won’t run to the Quorum of the 12 if someone says something negative about me
July 2, 2012 at 10:42 am
Why would you say something like this? You don’t really think you are going to accomplish any good at all with comments like this do you? I am on your team. I think Dehlin’s latest rant demonstrates stunning hyprocrisy and a complete lack of understanding of anything that Rosalynde actually said. But you are making it harder for people who feel like I do. These comments do not help. Ever. They just create division and promote anger and resentment. Nothing good can come from this.
And seriously now, Rameumpton–calls for excommunication? Really? His status in the church is absolutely none of your business.
July 2, 2012 at 11:10 am
I thought I was pretty clear in the post, on the why. My thoughts may not help, ever. I readily acknowledge my own weakness in this regard. Thanks for taking the time, to share your thoughts, though ..
July 2, 2012 at 1:14 pm
Guy,
I stand corrected. Just to clarify you being pretty clear is ” “ad hominem” attacks you are so fond of flinging at anyone who dares criticize anything you do”? and where are Johns ad hominem attacs?
Gail F. Bartholomew
July 2, 2012 at 11:16 am
Guy,
So you really want to call John out for explaining that her ideas are likely misdirected, and likely motivated by family loyalty? As if this statement proves to be a raving bombastic, and you punctuate your point by calling him a prick? You know your statement says far more about your methods than his.
Gail F. Bartholomew
July 2, 2012 at 11:18 am
I’m sure it does, Gail . . .
July 2, 2012 at 11:19 am
AND, I’m positive all John was doing was explaining are misdirected because of family loyalty . . .
July 2, 2012 at 11:21 am
“explaining how her ideas are misdirected”
July 2, 2012 at 11:23 am
Guy,
If you are sure of John’s intentions and you wish to expose them please give us a reasoned argument that illustrates that instead of waving your arms and stomping your feet and screaming.
July 2, 2012 at 11:30 am
All you have to do Gail, is read the comments in John’s Facebook post on Mormon Stories. It’s pretty easy to predict what types of comments John would generate in response to that post. You’ll note none of them really provide the information for which John actually asked–only further personal attacks and derision of Rosalynde You don’t need a reasoned response or argument for that. Let’s agree to disagree on John Dehlin. You like what he does–good for you. I don’t like what he does . . .
July 2, 2012 at 11:19 am
As John points out he not only promotes many apologists, but their ideas. It seems many of you commenting have little to no understanding of what John Dehlin and Mormon Stories are doing.
July 2, 2012 at 11:20 am
Yes, Gail. I for one am certain that I’m clueless about what John Dehlin is doing
July 2, 2012 at 11:25 am
John rather than being bombastic gave a reasoned argument. He did not rant rave and call names. Maybe that is all you are ready to do?
July 2, 2012 at 11:31 am
I’ve said all I’m going to say, Gail in response to your comments–but feel free to continue commenting. We’re just not going to agree . . .
July 2, 2012 at 11:38 am
I believe Dehlin began MS as a sincere effort. He did invite LDS scholars, including Dan Peterson, for some interesting discussions. However, in the last year or so, his methods and views have changed a lot. He used to be neutral. Now he isn’t. He’ll being his podcasts sounding neutral, but slowly move toward doubt and negativism regarding the Church. Few, if any, of his recent podcasts show the Church in a positive light. Few, if any, have John saying, “you know, I had my doubts on this issue, but I’m now convinced the Church is right on this one.” On almost all of the posts, he continues doubting, and encouraging others to doubt right along with him.
Rosalynde’s write up was spot on.
And when someone decides to become the enemy of the Church, whether it is William Marks, Sonia Johnson, or John Dehlin, the church has the right to be concerned. Dehlin has publicly stated he no longer believes. He is an agnostic/atheist. He is publishing things that clearly are contrary to the Church’s teachings. Those fit the definition of apostasy to me.
July 2, 2012 at 12:32 pm
Rameumptom,
I disagree. I believe he sets up his pod casts in a very neutral manner. He is honest and always has been about his own view point, but does not attempt to present his view point through the pod cast by stacking the deck so to speak. He if anything attempts to disprove his doubts with his podcasts. If you look at the most active part of the Mormon stories foundation of late, Mormonmatters.org, it if anything has become more and more apologetic in tone.
It sounds like you are saying that because John has beliefs contrary to the church that makes him against the church. I think even now he spends a lot of time and effort to help people stay in the church. That seems to be the very different than apostasy to me. Apostasy is the fighting against the church, not just having beliefs that are incompatible with the church.
You also have said “I believe Dehlin began MS as a sincere effort. He did invite LDS scholars, including Dan Peterson, for some interesting discussions.” The evidence you give for John no longer being sincere inm his search is mostly that his opinion have changed and are not as close to the church. He still brings on church scholars, and has very interesting discussions. Most of the scholars he brings on are very active in the church and have strong testimonies. So you are saying his questioning can no longer be sincere because his views differ from the church. I think your logic is lacking here.
Gail F. Bartholomew
July 2, 2012 at 11:42 am
Guy,
Yes your point is he is being a Prick in a nice way, but it does not make him not a prick. This is a cheap attempt to remove all burden proof from yourself, by saying he is trying to make himself look good by sounding nice and being mean, so if I am just mean I don’t need to using any form of reasoning I just need to call him names, therefore if Guy is not trying to look like a nice guy like John is therefore Guy must be right.
July 2, 2012 at 1:34 pm
Guy,
Yes I am happy to agree to disagree, but I never have stated that I like what he is doing. I am saying you are not being clear why what he is doing is prickish or bad.
Gail F. Bartholomew
July 11, 2012 at 6:28 am
I don’t even give John Dehlin the time of day. I’m really wary of the Mormon Stories group. I have several friends who think he’s going to completely leave the church and start his own church in the next couple of years and I think they are probably right.
August 9, 2012 at 12:42 am
I would really like to know why the Church (Salt Lake City) tolerate Dehlin and his like. Did Grant Palmer and the September Six and others who were excommunicated say worse things than what Dehlin says? I did not read Palmer’s book and I don’t know much about the others so my question is sincere. I agree with you, Guy, about what you said Dehlin is.
October 2, 2012 at 8:40 pm
I have my own reservations about Mormon Stories, but not about John in specific. I find him reasonable and in general restrained. I also find many of the people that comment there to be angry and sarcastic, so I’ve learned what to focus on. I’m surprised to find a site that proposes to represent a higher light has chosen to mimic just the wrong things about MS.
October 15, 2012 at 12:30 pm
This is a little harsh in language. I have my issues with JD and MS as well. He shows signs every now and then of being fair and “nuetral” but those moments are in the minority. There are positives and negatives to Mormon Stories, mostly negative these days. See this post http://thatbeliefmayflourish.blogspot.com/2012/10/why-involvement-with-organizations-such.html