For those who stop by here, but don’t frequent other bloggernacle sites, I’ve posted, over at Bloggernacle Times, a piece on the ongoing torture debate in our country–from this Latter-day Saint’s perspective. I hope you will take some time to look it over and let me know what’s missing, or wrong, or whatever. Also, I’d recommend from a political perspective you take a look at a new political blog over at The Good Democrat, where there are several good posts on the torture issue, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and finally here.
September 23, 2006
A Latter-day Saint Perspective On The Torture Debate
Posted by Guy Murray under Middle East, Politics[14] Comments
September 23, 2006 at 6:32 pm
Guy,
I thank you for recommending my posts. I feel very strongly about America not torturing anyone, and I hope others understand that it is evil and must be shunned. D&C 98 states:
We must seek the good and shun all evil.
September 23, 2006 at 9:48 pm
I completely agree with you. Even if torture were effective in getting information, we should shun the act like we would the plague. It’s hard for me to see Bush as a righteous Christian while he is advocating torture, or anyone else for that matter.
September 25, 2006 at 2:16 pm
100% agree!!!
We cannot call ourselves followers of Christ while we quibble over just how much “torture” we can permit ourselves while feeling good about it.
Christ’s instructions are clear, and we are to follow them. Love our enemies.
I am ashamed that these acts are being done in our name, and that we are rationalizing them as “defense”.
I understand the reasons behind this, it is the easy way out; it becomes much easier to compromise your morals when you are scared and feeling vulnerable. But that is exactly the time when we need to stand up for a principles, and show the world that we don’t only hold those principles when it is convenient.
September 25, 2006 at 3:46 pm
reminds me of the “wo unto those who lie in order to decieve because they claim that others are lying” meme.
September 26, 2006 at 5:51 am
Dan, Ian, Jolard, and Stephen M:
Thank you all for stopping by and sharing your thoughts on this post and the BT post as well for those who stopped by there. I appreciate your comments and learn a bit from everyone’s point of view. This is a rather depressing subject given the circumstances.
Thanks again.
September 28, 2006 at 7:15 pm
Very interesting, President Bush wants to get clarification and someone whispers the “Torture” word and all some folks hear is the whisper. Would someone please list for me what torture techniques they think President Bush is espousing? Abu Ghraib was done by folks who have since been identified and are in the process of being punished for despicable acts, as they should be. President Bush had nothing to do with those. Over at the Blog Times a person lists the following methods of torture:
Sleep Deprivation
“Conveyor”
Standing for long periods of time
Cold Water dowsing
Waterboarding
I’m sorry but I remember being subjected to three of the above while trying out for an elite Boy Scout group while a teen, Guy may have been there. I didn’t pursue membership after that weekend because I abhored the folks that took joy in doing such a thing, but I would rather be subjected to those than lose my head and have it broadcast over the internet for my loved ones to see. Those are the evil doers who will find out they were listening to Satan and not our Heavenly Father. Know your Satan. So folks listen a little closer, get past the whispers, and let’s talk about some facts pertinent to President Bush. If you know the specific measures President Bush would like to seek guidance on, share them, but reliving Abu Ghraib and relating it to President Bush, gets us no where. I am safer because of him and our troops and so is my family.
September 29, 2006 at 9:24 pm
Brian,
That’s not really the point of my post, which of course is not on this site but over at BT. My main point is that Christ’s injunction that we should treat others how we would want to be treated is the controlling principle in this debate. Or, that it should be. I know of no exceptions The Savior placed on that injunction. As far as I am aware it has universal application in all circumstances and conditions. If you know of scripture or teachings of Latter-day Prophets that limit or further clarify Christ’s injunction, please post them so I can incorporate that into my thinking.
You may very well have been subjected to some of the same type of conduct at “initiation”. I was not there–but do know what you are talking about. Still, my point is, as Christ has so enjoined us, that we should treat others as we would want to be treated.
As for George Bush–he is relevant to this discussion only insofar as he seems to be advocating the opposite of what Christ taught. Mr. Bush seems to take the position that we should seek ways to legalize certain conduct, i.e., water boarding, sleep deprivation, and the like to garner information helpful to us. All I can say, is that we should consider whether we would want our sons and daughters subject to the same conduct.
Thanks as always Brian for stopping by.
October 2, 2006 at 11:31 am
Excellent response Guy. I had been wondering how the site deviated into things more telestial rather than celestial and I see I continued that line. I guess the question one must ponder is how we reconcile War and Christ whose influences seem to be diametrically opposed. The question we all face is what would we do or allow if it was to protect a family member? I’m not very Christlike when my family or friends are threatened. As for President Bush, since he is in a no win situation, I think he is striving for clarification.
October 2, 2006 at 7:33 pm
Brian,
If it is true, that these techniques are no more harmful than what we are subjected to during Boy Scout hazing rituals, how does one expect them to actually work on a hardened terrorist?
October 5, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Redhatman, a good question, but my actual point was that I felt the President was seeking clarification, the specific aspects were ascribed by others. As for me, I’m proud to say that after days of subjugation, I held my own. However, I did come away with double pneumonia and an intense feeling of fear everytime someone yells “Initiates, get your briefcloths on!!”.
October 5, 2006 at 4:56 pm
Hmmm, the president is seeking clarification, but fails to mention just what he wants clarified. For example, he won’t answer a simple question: “Do you consider waterboarding to be torture?”
I know you want to give him the benefit of the doubt, because you believe he is a good man, but he has lost my trust, (and most Americans’s trust), and he has to be clear exactly what he is talking about. “Trust me” doesn’t cut it anymore.
October 6, 2006 at 8:01 pm
Brian # 8
I’m a bit backlogged in my blogging duties. I’m not certain Christ and war can be reconciled; but, I am aware there are scriptural precedents that do allow war. The bottom line is that war is a telestial activity not a celestial activity. I also think your question is not really the question we face. Our families, our friends are not being threatened over in the middle east. Rather we are engaged in a warlike activity thousands of miles away in foreign lands, that does not directly impact our families and friends here.
My question, I think is more narrow than war generally, or even the one you ask. Though there could be an entire post itself devoted to war. (Would you like to write it and send it to me? I’ll publish it here if you do.)
Rather, my question, I think, has already assumed war–i.e., where we find ourselves now in Iraq and Afghanistan. The question is how do we treat those over whom we now find ourselves in control, such as prisoners of war, or enemy combatants–whatever name you want to give them.
How are we morally obligated to treat these people–these sons and daughters of the same God from whence we inherit our own Divine lineage? Are we free to ignore Christ’s injunction and treat them with cruelty, with pain, with humiliation? In other words treat them how we ourselves would not want to be treated?
I still come up (at least in my opinion) with the same answer. No, we cannot treat them, other than how we would want to be treated. If we would not want our own sons and daughters, brothers, fathers, wives and sisters to be subjected to water boarding, or stripped naked, sexually humiliated, etc., etc. I see Christ’s injunction to us as a prohibition of that same treatment by us towards them.
Of course we all fall short of Christ’s perfect example–but I consider that part of life’s purpose. We are here to strive daily to reach that example as best we can. I think we as a country can and need to do a great deal more to treat others much better than we do.
I can’t accept your “clarification” exception as it were. There is no exception that Christ allowed (at least as I read the commandment). He said do ye so even unto them. Treat others as we would be treated. There is no exception for how much more cruelly may we treat someone because we are supposedly at war, or because they have treated us badly.
No easy answers perhaps; but, what seems to be clear is the unequivocal is the injunction that we treat others as we and Christ would treat them. Deep down inside, we know what that means. Where we fail, I think, is in our temporal weaknesses and justifications.
Thanks as always for stopping by. Hope al lis well for you and your family.
October 6, 2006 at 8:08 pm
Dan #11 Yes, I agree that most people, even many former supporters of George Bush have lost trust in him. And, deservedly so. I supported him, as did most Americans after 9/11; but, when he mislead us about Iraq, and used 9/11 to justify the war, death and destruction that he has brought to the world.
October 11, 2006 at 3:53 pm
The misleading argument is way old. War, death and destruction being brought to the world by the one and only George Bush is similarly old and false as well. I will agree that we remain disagreed on this one Guy.
An interesting article in yesterday’s Ventura Star quoted a recently returned Ventura resident, who was retiring from the military, after I believe 15 years of service, as stating that though he was opposed to many of President Bush’s ways, as a military man serving and fighting in the midst of Iraq, he supported President Bush in what was being done and how it was being done. But that was just one soldier’s opinion.
As for how to treat a man who would kill us in an instant had we not captured him first, how does one maintain a Christlike attitude when faced with death at the hands of another who hates you solely because you believe differently than he. That is the face of unreconcileable evil. How would Christ have counseled us? What does our current prophet say? How would that have been dealt with in the many wars throughout the Book of Mormon? I don’t have an answer, if there is one, but I do need to search for better answers. Perhaps it is to turn the other cheek knowing that in death we will find justice, but I’m not ready to die or to have one of my loved one’s die either, a rather telestial view, but it is mine, so I support those who would protect me and mine, be it the valiant soldiers or my President.