CNN now reports the State of Texas has taken over 400 children from the FLDS compound, and disrupted their family life, keeping the mothers and the children from their fathers: (previous FLDS raid post)
The children are being kept at a temporary shelter at historic Fort Concho in nearby San Angelo while authorities investigate whether a child bride gave birth on the ranch at age 15.
The children in state custody are joined at the shelter by 133 women, most of them mothers, who were taken during the past few days from the sprawling Yearning for Zion ranch, said Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the state’s Child Protective Services agency.
The women are free to return to the 1,900-acre compound, officials said, but many have chosen to remain. At this point, officials said, the children’s fathers are not permitted to see them.
It seems a bit disingenuous to suggest the mothers are free to leave their children in State custody and return to the compound without them. Sure, what Mother in their right mind would do that?
The good news appears to be that there is going to be some due process involved in this mess. They are going to appoint lawyers and hold hearings:
Court proceedings began Monday to determine whether there is enough evidence to remove the children from their homes on the ranch, which is near Eldorado, Meisner said. A hearing is scheduled April 17.
The children will be appointed lawyers and legal guardians in about two weeks, she added.
So, how many lawyers and guardians are they going to appoint–one for each child? That’s a lot of lawyers and guardians. How much of this will be public record? I have yet to see any published copies of the original arrest and search warrants.
Law enforcement officials would not provide many details of their investigation, but Meisner said the 401 court affidavits being filed Monday should shed some light on the alleged abuse.
On March 31, a 16-year-old called and reported physical and sexual abuse on the ranch, authorities said. She said she was married to a 50-year-old man. Authorities are looking for evidence the girl had a child at the age of 15.
It remains unclear whether the girl who reported being abused is among the children being interviewed — or was whisked away from the compound under a different name before authorities arrived.
This is the most amazing aspect of this fiasco. Law enforcement won’t provide details. The original arrest and search warrants don’t appear to be public yet. The allegations come from one 16 year old girl, who authorities despite having turned the compound upside down can’t seem to locate. Assuming the allegations of the 16 year old girl to be true, how on earth do those allegations support the wholesale armed invasion of an entire community? And, there is apparently some confusion about the 50 year old man who is the subject of the arrest warrant:
Barlow was sentenced to jail last year after pleading no contest to conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor, the AP said.
Barlow was ordered to register as a sex offender for three years while on probation, the wire service reported. Barlow’s probation officer, Bill Loader, told The Salt Lake Tribune in Utah that he was in Arizona and did not know his accuser.
It remained unclear, the spokeswomen said, whether that was the same Dale Barlow named in their warrant. They acknowledged the man they are seeking might not be in Texas, but said they had no other details about his whereabouts.
If you are going to forcefully take over 400 children and some 100 plus women away from their homes, husbands and fathers, aren’t you going to need a little more than the allegations of one 16 year old girl? Aren’t you going to want to know the actual identity of the alleged perpetrator of the child abuse?
Finally the FLDS are exerting their legal rights. The Salt Lake Tribune is reporting:
For the first time, the FLDS have responded to the state raid on the YFZ Ranch that began last Thursday and is just now nearing completion. In five filings released today, Isaac Jeffs and Merrill Jessop said the sect’s constitutional rights were violated in a massive search that was overly broad and vague in its focus.
Attorneys Evan Pierce-Jones and Nathan Butler of San Angelo and Patrick T. Peranteau of San Antonio are representing Jessop and Isaac Jeffs, who also filed documents objecting to the raid on behalf of the FLDS church.
A hearing is set for Wednesday before 51st District Judge Barbara Walther to hear the mens’ motions. The men say it is “impossible” that the sealed affidavit that triggered the investigation at the ranch listed sufficient evidence to search “each and every residence, structure, school, vehicle, place of business, temple or other facility.”
The men also point out that the arrest and search warrants targeting Dale Barlow are moot since he has been located in Colorado City, Ariz.
I hope these hearings will be televised on Court TV and that the warrants will be released and published in the press. I have to agree with the FLDS legal position that the wholesale invasion of the FLDS compound by the state of Texas is constitutionally troubling. The Constitution is meant to protect unpopular religious practice and belief against the excess of the State. Let’s hope that it does.
Other Sources
The Salt Lake Tribune Photo Gallery
Deseret News (FLDS lose custody of kids)
Deseret News (Attorneys hired to defend FLDS members)
Deseret News (Texas neighbors respond to raid)
Salt Lake Tribune (401 FLDS kids in custody)
San Angelo (Courts brace for onslaught)
Houston Chronicle (400 children in custody)
MSNBC (534 leave polygamist ranch)
April 7, 2008 at 8:54 pm
[…] April 4, 2008 Overkill In Eldorado Texas? Posted by Guy Murray under FLDS, Polygamy, Warren Jeffs | Tags: FLDS, Polygamy, Warren Jeffs | The FLDS Church is again making headlines, this time in El Dorado Texas, the latest FLDS compound. This is the biggest news splash since the Warren Jeffs’ conviction last year on charges of accomplice to rape. There are several MSM sources for this breaking story. (My Update posted here). […]
April 7, 2008 at 9:56 pm
Thanks for the update, Guy. I’m glad that someone else (you) agrees that this is potentially a terrible violation of constitutional rights.
Based on the evidence being reported to this point, it seems reasonable to suspect that the phone call from an unnamed girl who cannot be found that no one knows anything about was bogus.
April 7, 2008 at 10:05 pm
Hi Christopher,
I am almost speechless as I watch these events unfold. Maybe there will be evidence that will eventually justify the magnitude of this raid; but, so far, I haven’t seen or read about it. If there had been widespread abuse, why didn’t Texas do anything about it earlier? What about Utah and Arizona before that, which is where many of these folks lived before Texas?
Are we really to believe one phone call from a 16 year old girl has produced sworn allegations sufficient to essentially shut down the entire compound? I am just astounded. This will be fascinating to watch it play out. Thanks for stopping by.
April 7, 2008 at 10:29 pm
Thank you, Texas, for dealing with FLDS situation that Arizona turned a blind eye to for decades! Even Senator McCain from Arizona did nothing about this abuse of women and children all the years he has lived in Arizona. There was a “raid” on the Arizona sect 55 years ago, but nothing changed and the sect went back to their polygamy when the dust settled because the women had no other way of life. The state of Arizona even certified police officers who were members of the sect. These women and children have many generations of this abuse in their history and they have no education, no income, no support. The books in the libraries were destroyed. Once Arizona started to finally come down on the Jeffs family, the sect started the move to Texas. There are also followers in Utah and Canada. These men get their income from state welfare when these women apply for aid, and from the “family” business of running video arcades. These men stop at nothing. Here in Arizona, the marriages between relatives have resulted in many children with birth defects and the resulting need for even more public services to care for these children with neurological deficits. Don’t back down, Texas.
April 7, 2008 at 10:41 pm
CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS?? Are you kidding me? Since when does molesting children play into peopls Constitutional rights?!?!
If 50 year old men are married to teens under 16 that is statutory rape, molestation. We have seen several accounts, 18 of those children under the age of 16 are pregnant! which proves the theory that they were raped. Who gives a crap whether it is under the guise of religion. Kids do not deserve to be raped… and forced into anything they don’t want to do!
April 8, 2008 at 12:05 am
GO TEXAS!!!!!!
Name the 16 year old girl.Sorry fellows but the state is protecting the rights of this young girl.Those girls finally are being protecteed from a bunch of sick men filling their dreams of “statutory rape and molestation under the protection of church.Bad news boys because of her age she will be know as “Jane Doe”. Unlike you sick men true God fearing people will finally protect this girl and hopefully the other 400 children.
April 8, 2008 at 12:11 am
The law has no right to do this.
They can’t take kids like that.
If people want to live like these people have lived, then so be it.
This is not a question of what the law thinks.
I am tired of the law taking away freedom in the land of the free.
Time to stand up and fight!
The law sucks.
Just think … judges defend illegal immigrants who have done FAR WORSE!!
Stop it all now!
I am,
GEORGE VREELAND HILL
April 8, 2008 at 5:26 am
Amazing. I am shocked.
In my neighborhood nine out of ten families don’t have a father at home. Many of the families have the same father but the state takes care of the kids through welfare payments to the mother. I know men that have children from ten to fifteen different women but have never paid a penny for their support. I can see that our way is so much better than the polygamists. Is this the best answer? Over 400 fatherless children taken away from their parents. Are we serious? Half of all children today will not have a father at home sometime in there life. It leads to out of control boys joining gangs looking for a father image and promiscuous girls having even more fatherless children, drug abuse and more. This country has it all backwards. My view is polygamy is wrong, but many feel homosexuality is wrong too. Aren’t both alternate lifestyles? Both can have children so that argument falls on its face.
Whats next, if I spank my child because they won’t behave, will they be taken away? Most Americans were spanked as children and it didn’t hurt them.
If I smoke in my house will my children be taken away?
Are my children going to be taken away if I am poor and can’t afford a seperate bedroom for each one?
Whats next?
April 8, 2008 at 5:34 am
Up until this century, if a woman wasn’t married by the time she was 18, she was considered an old maid. These families with mothers under 18 were the same families that this country was built on. I don’t think a woman under 18 is really emotionally ready for children but in most of the rest of the world, it is usually the case. We talk about the land of the free but we just keep telling everyone how to live their lives.
As far as the 16 year old, how many teenagers rebel against their parents? How many complain to teachers, their friends, and even the authorities to complain about how unfair their parents are. The reason they can’t find this 16 year old is that she probably feels like a fool for making the call in the first place.
April 8, 2008 at 7:28 am
SOME OF YOU PEOPLE ARE SICK! THESE WOMEN & BABIES ARE BEING ABUSED! IF THIS WAS A GROUP A BLACKS, THE POLICE WOULD BE ALL OVER THIS AND THE COMMENTS ON THIS BOARD WOULD BE JUST THE OPPOSITE! LETS SEE JOHN MCCAIN EXPLAIN THIS ONE.
I CANT WAIT TILL OBAMA WINS SO HE CAN COME DOWN HARD ON THE RACIST. [edited by admin] AND WHERE THE HELL IS MITT ROMNEY AND GLEN BECK? THEY HAVE ALL DAY TO TALK NEGATIVE ABOUT OBAMA AND KILL WHITE KIDS IN THIS WAR BUT IT WILL BE A BLACK GUY WHO HELP SAVE THIS AS WELL.
April 8, 2008 at 7:37 am
THE FDLS [edited] IS ALLOWED TO THRIVE IN THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE WHITE MEN ONLY CARE ABOUT WHITE MEN!ALL YOU LADIES NEED TO PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO HOW THIS IS HANDLE BECAUSE IF THE GOV OR THE LDS [edited] DOESENT STEP UP FOR THE WOMAN AND CHILDREN IN THIS CASE, THEN WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU SUPPORT [edited] THATS BENT ON THE MIND STATE THAT WOULD ALLOW SUCH TREATMENT TO ANY PERSON MUCH LESS WOMAN AND CHILDREN. THIS IS JUST AS BAD AS SLAVERY! MAYBE WORSE! OBAMA 08!
April 8, 2008 at 7:45 am
B Black,
I understand this is a controversial topic, and emotions may run high; however, please refrain from personal or group insults such as the term cult implies. Please avoid overt racism in your comments.
Thank you.
April 8, 2008 at 7:54 am
I didn’t think race had anything to do with this thing?
I very much don’t agree with polygamy, abuse of children and women, and under age marriage but the point I am trying to make is why are we so worried about this [edited by admin] when we allow millions of drug addicted mothers to have babies and bring them up with pedophile abusive boyfriends. Can you honestly tell me that the lives these addicted women and children are living is worse than a child brought up in a polygamist environment. The jails and welfare roles aren’t filled with the criminal children of polygamist parents, they are filled with the products of our poor social policies.
April 8, 2008 at 7:59 am
Again, I am going to request that those who comment refrain from reference to the FLDS or any other religious movement as a cult. It is an offensive term, and has no place in civilized discourse. You may not agree with the FLDS religious beliefs, but we need not denigrate them with words like cult.
Thanks again.
April 8, 2008 at 8:23 am
My word, Guy, how did THIS group of commenters find you?
Thanks for continuing to post updates on this story. It seems that some people are so obsessed by their antipathy to this group that they don’t recognize how easily the same abuse could be turned toward their own families, should they ever become unpopular for any reason at all.
April 8, 2008 at 8:26 am
Hi Ardis,
Apparently CNN has linked to me, since I liked to their article on their web site. So, I’m assuming some of this traffic comes from CNN. Thanks for pointing out that we are all just a step away from unpopularity–one we all need to remember.
April 8, 2008 at 8:47 am
Thanks Guy for bringing a measured and sane commentary to this tragic situation. I’m very disturbed by the manner in which the State of Texas is handling this matter, and would have hoped for more transparency.
Despite the (apparent) gross violation of the Constitution, I do think that this situation (along with the ongoing Jeffs trials) will convince FLDS leadership that they need to stop the underage marrying. It’s bringing them much more grief than I think they bargained for.
April 8, 2008 at 8:49 am
Pediphilia has no bounds it seems in this country….where is the public outcry for the Arizona lack of action in this state…for the numbers of years nothing was done in the Arizona strip….. I went to the Lee’s Ferry Crossing rest stop and an old grey haired woman was declaring the polygamist kids that were take away in the early arizona raid were worse off and declaring the attributes of polygamist families in early arizona….. She was even declaring that the Meadows massacre happened because the ‘wagon train taunted the faithful..”..Come into the light…Arizona”…..expose the history that has created this ‘tolerance.
April 8, 2008 at 9:33 am
Once again, unmeasured and unwarranted overreaction, justified by do-gooders waving their “save the children” banners. Misdirected “charity”, it seems, is not subject to the bounds of reason.
We never learn.
April 8, 2008 at 9:33 am
Hi David,
Yes, you are correct, the FLDS need to re evaluate the underage as well as the forced aspect of their marriages. But, Arizona once thought similar to Texas does now, and their raid didn’t work out so well for them.
There needs to be some balance here between legitimate complaints of alleged criminal conduct such as statutory rape and child abuse, and on the other hand the rights of law abiding citizens who may hold peculiar but unpopular religious beliefs.
April 8, 2008 at 9:35 am
Jim,
Indeed, the same old story, with likely the same old results. We shall see.
April 8, 2008 at 9:41 am
Guy, I am in agreement about upholding the rule of law, but I think this kind of massive police brutality is simply not justifiable. It is not the intrusive nature of the police action that is objectionable, but the abruptness and the scale of the operation that offend.
The raid on the “compound” was apparently launched like a military offensive. Surely a more subtle approach was possible, practical, safer, less obtrusive.
Apparently one of the primary objectives was to get good press coverage of the event.
April 8, 2008 at 9:51 am
Jim,
Yes, we are in agreement on this. The military like action was offensive, particularly the scope of the action. Only time will tell whether there were sufficient legal grounds. Based on what the press is currently reporting, it sounds unlikely, but we shall see.
April 8, 2008 at 10:00 am
I’d *like* to cut Eldorado a little slack, given their county’s experiences at Waco — but by the same token, they should have been more careful than ever due to their county’s experiences at Waco. They expected, or at least were preparing for, massive injury and loss of life, else why the line of ambulance after ambulance during the initial invasion? That line of ambulances, together with the first days’ transportation by and housing at the Baptist church — of all possible organizations — shows how little they know the FLDS.
April 8, 2008 at 10:17 am
Ardis,
Yeah, the Baptist twist was a bit ironic to say the least. Those photos at the Tribune and elsewhere of this whole fiasco are incredibly dramatic. Brook Adams and company are doing a great job reporting and providing the photos.
April 8, 2008 at 10:19 am
I think you’re right Ardis that Waco is the primary historical event that is shaping how this raid is being conducted. I wonder if the raid’s planners even bothered to read up on Short Creek, or if they just relied on the media’s so-called “experts.”
April 8, 2008 at 11:18 am
Guy:
Thanks for writing about this. I think that what is happening down there is outrageous! You have articulated many of the reasons for my opinion. I wish I had time to articulate more. There are so many less intrusive, offensive, forceful, abusive ways in which the local Government could and should have handled the abuse allegations.
April 8, 2008 at 1:21 pm
If they wanted to raid this place as a form of religious persecution they would have done that a long time ago when the Warren Jeffs thing was going on, they went there to look for Jeffs back when he was wanted by the FBI and after they determined that he was not there, they have not had any other dealings with them since that time. A call was made by some one from the compound last week from an alleged 16 year old alleging abuse. For the sake of the children, if you get a call from a child claiming abuse it is definitely something that should be looked into, if nothing was going on then there would be nothing to worry about, but upon arrival they discovered several young girls under 17 that are pregnant, this in and of itself gives some credence to the claim of the girl that made the call last week. This is not the same thing as young promiscuous girls having lots of babies… this is men who are very much older than these girls who decide among themselves who marries who, this is not the choice of these girls.
April 8, 2008 at 1:40 pm
Missy, we’ve read the same news stories. Even granting that underage marriages and resultant pregnancies are common, nobody, even the nutters in Tapestry, have ever alleged that infants, girls of 3 or 5 or 7, or little boys, have been involved in inappropriate sexual contact. And while yes, you investigate any plea from somebody alleging abuse, you (at least reasonable people) do not take 401 children away from home on the mere possibility that *one* of them may have been harmed, nor hold their fathers on house arrest, nor force their mothers to choose whether to stand by their husbands or care for their children.
And if you’re interested in the denying the taint of religious bigotry, you don’t use Baptist buses — BAPTIST!! for crying out loud! — to haul the children away from home, nor do you house them in a Baptist church building. Or even if you’re so crass and ignorant as to do that, you don’t allow photographs. Slipped up on that one, didn’t you?
April 8, 2008 at 1:42 pm
And you don’t break into the holy site of a religion — even one you despise — the way you West Texans did.
April 8, 2008 at 5:42 pm
I completely agree with everything Ardis has said in this thread. Somewhere, there’s a snowball in Hell! 😉
April 8, 2008 at 6:18 pm
The Smoking Gun has the 6 page affidavit.
April 9, 2008 at 1:17 am
Age of consent is 17 in Texas even if the marriageable age is lower. Sleeping with a girl under 17 is automatically statutory rape, (with the three-year age difference exception). Religion doesn’t have any bearing on the determination, because the law isn’t targeted at persecuting religious groups.
So finding a bunch of pregnant teenagers with much older husbands? I’d radio for the buses.
And Ardis Parshall, the idea that sexual abuses should only be considered serious if the kids are prepubescnet is a *sick* attitutde to have.
April 9, 2008 at 8:14 am
I think it is awful! Those poor people! I am so happy they are being rescued from a life of sin! I am sure none of you would want your young daughters married off to a perverted 50 year old! Just because they were born into it, doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have a choice and not be educated about the real world and choose what religion they want to follow. That is how they stay in control of their people, no education, no income, they are being brain washed into thinking that way of life is normal. I bet if those women and children were educated and experienced what is like outside the compound, they would never look back. God made this world a big place. We are supposed live and experience its beauty, not sit in a dark corner and let some religion live our life and make our choices for us. God gave us all a mind so we can make our own choices. We should be living for God, not for religion. To the person with the comment about the land of the free,just how much freedom do you think these women and children had? We shouldn’t halfway raise our children and then say, “Okay sweetheart, you are thirteen, time to get married to an old man and have children of your own even though you are not fully grown”. That is insane! Children are innocent and they should stay that way. Our job as parents are to guide them to make the right decisions, not tell them what they are going to do. Depriving these women and children from every opportunity the world has to offer is inhumane! Especially when you are doing it fufill your sick sense of religion! There are many terrible things in this world, but just as many and much more good things. The Bible says somewhere that it is not healthy to look at the world and only see the bad. There are many things in this world to appreciate as well. We should experience it all and not be confined in such a way we don’t get to exprience all God created. I pray these people get the chance they deserve at a new start full of control in all they do!
April 9, 2008 at 8:38 am
I just came here. It looks to me from my superficial reading that the 16 year old gave fairly good evidence of systematic abuse of children throughout the compound. That, combined with evidence from Utah arrests, made rescuing the kids quite legal and I’d argue necessary.
I’m surprised anyone is defending these folks.
April 9, 2008 at 8:43 am
And Ardis, to say they don’t know the FLDS. Well of course they don’t know them. I’m not sure anyone really does. I think they’d have been criminally negligent not to have prepared for the worst. Thank heavens it wasn’t needed.
April 9, 2008 at 8:49 am
Clark,
Of course no one that I have read has commented in defense of child or sexual abuse. What I, and others are defending are the rights of those not guilty of sexual and child abuse, which seem to have just fallen through the cracks here. Of all people, I’m a bit surprised, you would construct a “straw man” to argue against what some have commented on here.
The fact remains that some of “these folks” as you describe them still enjoy the same rights under the United States’ Constitution as do you and I.
April 9, 2008 at 8:56 am
The point is that there is prima facie evidence for there being systematic underage marriages to older men. I’m surprised you find that even surprising.
April 9, 2008 at 9:01 am
Clark,
Certainly, that is one point, which in fact does not at all surprise me. Where did I say that was surprising? If you read my latest post, of today, you will see you are either mistaken about my take on this raid, or have misread or misunderstood what I am saying.
I think all the abuse allegations should be investigated and prosecuted where appropriate. BUT, I don’t think what the State has thus far shown supports in anyway what it has done.
That’s it.
April 9, 2008 at 9:14 am
Not everyone may have been guilty of the crimes, but they probably turned their cheek to the ones who were doing it. To me that is enough for them to go through the process as everyone else. As close knit as these little groups are, can you really say that those not directly did the abuse, weren’t aware of it?
April 9, 2008 at 11:44 am
Lynn –
First, these groups aren’t THAT small. The FLDS, I understand, has a membership approaching 8,000.
Second, I don’t say that NO abuse is going on. But our loudest sources of information to date have been about five malcontented women who tell their stories through book deals and Oprah appearances. There are other, quieter sources who tell a very different story. KSL radio yesterday had a guest who was a former (female) member of the FLDS, and reported no problems at all when she decided to leave. If you search through the blogs of the Salt Lake Tribune’s website, you’ll see one or two current (female) members of FLDS communities who have made postings telling a vastly different story than that of the Jessops and Wahls.
And don’t forget–as soon as that Jessop lady’s oldest daughter was old enough to decide for herself, she went right back into the compound from which she’d been “rescued”–in spite of all the counseling her mother had put her through.
April 10, 2008 at 7:10 am
Lynn,
That’s not a spectacularly good argument—back in my high school days, I (and everyone else in high school) knew that certain people did drugs on a regular basis. But our “knowledge” as it were would not have justified the local sheriff coming in and rounding us all up because certain people in our community were performing bad acts. If I were performing the bad acts, or selling drugs to the bad actors, sure, I broke a law. My mere knowledge, however, is significantly different.
April 10, 2008 at 7:13 am
Basically, nobody has argued that the bad actors—those men having sex with underaged girls—should not be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. And those children in danger of being abused should certainly be protected. But I can’t come up with an argument how 400+ children were at risk of being harmed; at the very least, it seems relatively clear that, for the most part, girls under the age of, say, 10 and boys were at no risk in the foreseeable future.
April 10, 2008 at 7:44 am
The way I see it is, if one person is as risk, it is worth the raids and investigations of the whole area. What if that one child was yours. Better safe than sorry. As far as having knowelege about others commiting crimes as lynn said, I think that is a very good argument. How can you even compare not reporting teenagers in highschool doing drugs, to not reporting adults abusing children???? These are peoples’ lives we are talking about. If nothing comes of it, life will go on, but at least the people of Texas can say they did what they could to prevent any abuse in this particular situation. As far as those peoples’ rights go, they are free to live how they want, as long as they aren’t hurting anyone or anyone elses rights. If they or anyone else feels bad or offended about the way things went down, they should know the Constitution doesn’t protect your feelings!
April 11, 2008 at 4:44 pm
HOw can we allow this type of thing to go on anywhere in our country. All I can so is that the children will be suffering over this for the rest of their lives. How can this be and why hasn’t there been an outrage over this?
April 16, 2008 at 9:33 pm
Those who wish to practice polygamy should do so where it is not illegal – that would have prevented all this mess…. no one can ignore established laws and justify it with “freedom” when that freedom infringes upon the innocent and makes them victims …
May 5, 2008 at 6:10 pm
In case you hadn’t heard, the call supposedly made by the young girl was a hoax. It was made by a black woman, Rozita Swinton. She was apparently obsessed with the FLDS church and their fear of black people.
May 6, 2008 at 7:16 am
i love african