(Update 4/14/08 4:45 p.m.) The Salt Lake Tribune reports that the Texas CPS in its ongoing abuse of the FLDS Mothers and children, has now separated all the mothers from their children! Does anyone involved in this operation have any media savvy, let alone compassion for these poor mothers and children?
If you haven’t seen Brooke Adams’ latest blog entry on the Plural Life about misconceptions of FLDS dress standards, please take a few minutes and read it. We can learn a few things here folks.
The most recent reports of the ill conceived Texas raid of the FLDS community near Eldorado Texas are more and more disturbing. The Deseret News has chronicled video interviews of several FLDS parents, whose children were kidnapped under color of law by Texas law enforcement in the recent raid. If you have not seen these videos, they are just heart wrenching and very powerful. I don’t know how to embed video, and I’m not sure these can be embedded as they belong to the Deseret News; however, I will provide the links below, and encourage you to view them for yourselves:
The first is Richard’s Story. The second is Monica’s Story. The third is Shannon’s Story. Each is an abbreviated interview with these parents of children, held hostage by Texas authorities. The fathers, of course were not allowed to accompany the children after the raid. These two particular mothers were not at home at the time of the raid, and now, in its infinite wisdom, Texas CPS authorities refuse to allow these mothers any access at all to these children. I can’t imagine the heartbreak for these mothers, and the terror for these children.
I know of absolutely no evidence that the Richard, Monica, or Shannon depicted in these video interviews are accused of anything remotely resembling child abuse. Yet, Texas authorities have literally kidnapped their children under color of law, and now keep these parents and children apart.
Monica and Shannon are two of three women who have written to Texas Governor Rick Perry, asking him to intervene in this case. The letter relates appalling living conditions for these children, and required hospitalization for some:
Three women from the YFZ Ranch have sent a letter to Texas Gov. Rick Perry, asking him to intervene and return their children. In the single-page letter dated Friday, the women say that the 416 children now staying at two state shelters are being traumatized.
The letter was signed by Monica Jessop, Patricia Keate and Shannon Johnson. They said about 15 mothers were away from the ranch when state authorities came and took away the children.
“We were contacted and told our homes had been raided, our children taken away with no explanation and because of [a] law enforcement blockade preventing entering or leaving the ranch, we were unable to get to our homes and had nowhere to go,” the letter says.
They ask Perry to visit Fort Concho and the Wells Fargo Pavilion to see firsthand the living conditions there, describing them as appalling. Some children have become sick during the week they’ve been in state custody, and a few have required hospitalization, the women said.
“Our innocent children are continually being questioned on things they know nothing about,” the letter states. The children have been “horrified” by physical exams they’ve undergone, the letter said. Officials say the exams were routine, basic and brief health checks that did not require the removal of clothing.
Another compelling telephone interview from inside the CPS detention facility is on The Deseret News site here. Click on the link (located in the upper left side of the page) entitled: Exclusive telephone interview from inside Fort Concho.
A couple of excerpts, based on my review of the interview:
There are 170 people, with only two bathroom facilities. There are children, who are crying and sick. They play outside on gravel, which is very dusty. They are being restricted from a large nearby grassy area where the kids could play. They undergo intrusive questioning by lawyers. There is intimidation by CPS workers telling children if they don’t relate things against their parents, they will never see their parents again. There are only six showers between the two facilities. They only have the clothes they wore from the ranch. Additional clothes sent from the ranch, but CPS will not allow them access to the clothes. Children crying and screaming from CPS physical examinations conducted without mothers present. Mothers and children being kept apart with no means of communication available.
So far, there has been no official response by the Governor. So, the question that needs answering, is why these three women are being kept from their children? What evidence is there they are unfit mothers, that they have abused their children? Texas doesn’t appear to have any such evidence. The only rational conclusion one can draw is that these women dress funny, they belong to an extremely unpopular religious movement, and they shun the modern cesspool we call American pop culture. So, since they are so powerless and unpopular Texas has seen fit to kidnap their children, hold them hostage and subject them to what likely is the most abusive environment yet–the protective care of the Texas Child Protective Services.
If you want another viewpoint of the FLDS lifestyle from a former FLDS member, commenter John F has pointed out a post by BIV over at Hieing to Kolob. She doesn’t reference the source, but it is nevertheless an interesting post, and appears to provide a differing point of view of the FLDS lifestyle.
In other media coverage, the Deseret News reports on comments made by Utah’s attorney general, Mark Shurtleff, who presents a much more reasoned, and common sense law enforcement approach to the FLDS issue–focus solely on child abuse:
Still, Shurtleff said he had no plans to conduct a similar mass-scale raid on the polygamous border towns of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz.
“And do what? Arrest thousands of polygamists in Utah? We wouldn’t have 400 kids, we’d have thousands in our foster care and thousands of their parents in the prison system. It’s not practical to do that,” Shurtleff said. “We were right to focus on abused children.”
The Utah Attorney General’s Office has made it clear that it will not prosecute polygamy as a criminal offense alone.
Instead, it has chosen to focus on child abuse, domestic violence and fraud. Shurtleff has said that he would have liked to have seen more cases prosecuted but did not have the necessary evidence or witnesses willing to come forward.
Polygamy is prohibited, but attorneys say constitutional questions regarding religious freedom could make it too difficult to secure a conviction on plural marriage alone, as is the case with court rulings regarding the rights of consenting adults.
County attorneys in Utah have shouldered the prosecution of polygamists, but the Utah Attorney General’s Office has had involvement and influence on the cases.
Attorney General Shurtleff also criticized Texas’ raid:
Even now, Shurtleff questions the decision by Texas authorities in removing all 416 children from the FLDS Church’s YFZ Ranch.
“There is that sweeping statement that they’ve concluded as a matter of law that if you’re a child in a polygamous family, that alone means you’re abused,” Shurtleff said. “We’ve never concluded that here.”
Indeed, both Utah and Arizona have decades more experience in dealing with the FLDS community than has Texas, and its Rangers. Clearly law enforcement officials in both Utah and Arizona have not concluded as a matter of law that merely living in the FLDS community is child abuse per se. What insights do Texas’ authorities have to make such a conclusion, when law enforcement authorities with much more experience with the FLDS communities refuse to make such a leap?
The Deseret News also reports that mothers’ cell phones are now being confiscated, which will have the practical effect of silencing these women, and keep the outside world and the media from hearing what is going on first hand inside the CPS detention facilities:
SAN ANGELO, Texas — A Texas judge on Sunday ordered law enforcement officials to immediately confiscate all cell phones in the possession of FLDS women and children now housed in temporary quarters here.
“I just called to say hi. They are about to collect the phones, I think,” one soft-spoken FLDS woman said during a telephone call to another member of the Fundamentalist LDS Church who was outside the shelter. “I don’t like what they’re doing.”
Several of the women inside the shelters spoke by cell phone to the Deseret News on Saturday to describe the living conditions there. Children could be heard crying in the background of each conversation. The News published an article on Sunday quoting the women, who complained there was no privacy and that their children were getting sick.
FLDS faithful outside the shelter are convinced Sunday’s court order is a direct result of the women speaking to the newspaper.
“This is nothing more than retaliation of Child Protective Services to punish those who were disclosing what is really happening behind the walls of this concentration camp,” said Don, an FLDS member who asked that his last name not be used. “These are my family members.”
FLDS members outside the shelter said authorities wearing rubber gloves and using metal detectors combed the facilities looking for cell phones.
“They looked in every baby diaper and over every woman and child,” said one man.
Rubber gloves and metal detectors? It conjures up visions of a concentration camp.
CNN is also reporting facts similar to those above.
In an interesting opinion piece over at The Daily Texan, Chris Jones, who supports the Texas raid, nevertheless observes the limits of intervention:
Unfortunately, even with strong evidence of wrongdoing and fairly clear moral, ethical and legal reasons for the state to intervene, it’s also clear that the FLDS situation represents a problem that is beyond the state’s ability to fully handle.
Consider, for example, the difficulty of finding foster care for the 400-odd evacuated children. Such an undertaking might be difficult for the state’s foster care system in the best of times, but it may be particularly difficult in this case, given the children’s FLDS upbringing and lack of exposure to the outside world. While the children may not be in as much danger as the “Lost Boys” of the Colorado City FLDS branch – teenage boys who are expelled with no support or guidance from their homes and families, essentially to provide a larger proportion of marriageable girls – it will still be extremely difficult for many of these FLDS kids to make the transition to mainstream life.
More problematic is the FLDS religion itself. Core principles of American democracy encourage privacy, tolerance and freedom of religion, so FLDS followers generally only intruded upon them in extreme circumstances. But the FLDS religion seems almost perfectly designed to push its members into such circumstances. FLDS members seem to have viewed it as almost a religious duty to “marry” underage girls. A recent police raid on their temple in El Dorado discovered a top-floor bedroom where authorities alleged marriages were consummated soon after the ceremony was complete. Former FLDS leader Warren Jeffs was also convicted last year of arranging for underage girls to be married to older men.
But where does the state draw the line between fighting illegal behavior and fighting a religious environment and upbringing that seems to encourage illegal behavior? Repeated raids on the FLDS in the 1930s, ’40s and ’50s to enforce anti-polygamy measures did not break the church – rather, they only seemed to enforce FLDS followers’ faith and commitment. It clearly seems beyond government’s power to drag the FLDS kicking and screaming into the 20th century, much less the 21st. But at the same time, if state protective services has a mandate to remove children from potentially abusive situations, it seems hard to believe that the state could allow any children to be raised in the FLDS at all.
The FLDS church crisis has thus exposed a gap between society’s legal and moral standards and the steps that society is willing to take to enforce those standards. How things play out in the Texas Hill Country over the coming weeks and months will show how much we are willing – or able – to close that gap.
Other excellent coverage of the FLDS raid continues over at Grits For Breakfast.
So, here we are, day 11. Texas has no complaining witness. Despite having kidnapped over 400 children from their parents, having them in the CPS detention for 11 days, undergoing intrusive questioning and physical examinations, Texas has yet to locate the one 16 year old, pregnant mother (who supposedly also exhibits evidence of physical abuse), and who also has an eight month old baby. Despite having met with and having interviewed the alleged child/wife abusing alleged husband, the Texas Rangers have made no arrests–with good reason since there is absolutely no evidence he has even been in Texas since 1977. If a 16 year old spiritual wife is so mistaken about the identity of her abuser husband, about what else is she mistaken? If it is Texas which is mistaken about the identity of the abuser/husband–about what else are they mistaken?
Meanwhile over 400 children remain locked behind the CPS detention facilities in West Texas, in deplorable conditions, deprived of their homes and families, suffering the worst abuse in their lives, from the Texas CPS.
Previous FLDS Texas Raid Posts
April 14, 2008 at 7:38 am
Thanks for this round-up.
April 14, 2008 at 8:06 am
As difficult as it would be for them, the FLDS should find some way to interact with the rest of the world to some extent. Those mothers, both those imprisoned with the children and those locked out, are some of the best ambassadors they could have for changing public perceptions.
April 14, 2008 at 8:31 am
Guy,
you can embed a Youtube video here in WordPress. The code looks like this:
[ youtube = ” the URL ” ]
Except of course you need to remove all the spaces. That’s it.
April 14, 2008 at 9:28 am
Changing public relations? The kids looked very healthy and happy in their pictures taken when they were kidnapped. The FLDS women, unlike the women escorting them, dressed and looked like ladies. Anyone seeing those pics can see they are Christian families who care for their children. Having thier own retreat center and a place of worship like that proves they are men who put their time and money into providing their families with a good environment.
So many people in social services are so twisted themselves, they can’t even see what a happy Christian family looks like. They will never understand the joy of being pregnant or the love between a mother and her babies or the pride of a father (or son, brother, grandfather)as he protects & provides for his family and community, or the deep bonds that siblings have.
April 14, 2008 at 9:31 am
The kids reported the abuse so they took away their way of reporting it so CPS can keep on abusing them.
April 14, 2008 at 9:50 am
This is heartbreaking. What’s next- shaved heads and tattooed ID numbers?
I just can’t believe this is happening in the USA.
Ardis is right. The women who are being kept from their children are the best hope for getting their story out and gaining some compassion from the press and the public.
April 14, 2008 at 10:53 am
Or perhaps the whole story isn’t being told here OR by the Texas authorities? In most cases, it’s a mix of what the media and the ‘interested party’ is saying. Nobody on this site appears to be addressing the primary concern of the Texas raid, which was underage GIRLS being married to older men.
No matter what your religion, that’s against the law in every state of the union, because our country recognizes that teenage girls don’t have the maturity to truly understand the emotional and physical nature of marriage.
April 14, 2008 at 10:59 am
Look at this pic here, how can anyone in the general public think these families should be ripped apart? Some things you can’t fake, people just can’t pretend to be this content.
http://www.trenthead.com/?p=2252
What happened to the pictures that were taken by the cell phones from where the children are? Did the newspapers not publish them?
April 14, 2008 at 11:17 am
Read what Dr Smith said about the FLDS women and children:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8908638
What we are seeing here is due to the fact that the government got away with this:
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html
April 14, 2008 at 11:27 am
I think it is important to keep this in mind:
“In my opinion, this is the largest endeavor we’ve ever been involved in in the state of Texas,” said Children’s Protective Services spokesman Marleigh Meisner, who said she was also involved in the 1993 siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco.
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080407/D8VTAD1G0.html
400+ Kids Taken From Polygamist Compound
I do not think the Founding Fathers would recognize this nation today.
I do not think one can ever appease Big Brother.
“There is nothing short of complete apostasy, a complete denial of every principle we have received, a throwing away of the Holy Priesthood, that can save us from persecution. When this takes place, when all the chief features of the Gospel are obliterated, when we can float along the stream and do as the world does, then and not till then will persecution cease, or until the adversary is bound.”
(George Q. Cannon, 15 May 1881, Journal of Discourses, Volume 22, page 374)
April 14, 2008 at 11:27 am
#7 D
No one here is in favor of child abuse in any way, shape or form. No one is arguing that marriage between underage girls and older men, or forced marriages of any kind are a good thing.
I personally lay the ultimate blame for this nightmare at the door of the FLDS men. I think polygamy is wrong, and I think they should renounce it.
However, that doesn’t mean that I can’t have compassion for the innocent children who are being held in reportedly horrible conditions and for their mothers who are in many ways victims themselves. It is heartbreaking.
And the abuses of their constitutional rights by Texas officials and law enforcement personnel are equally horrifying.
April 14, 2008 at 11:50 am
does anyone know if there is some kind of help group of any kind besides “governemnt” help?
April 14, 2008 at 11:54 am
They said on NPR today that the state was seeking custody of all the children. One what grounds?
April 14, 2008 at 12:57 pm
And what words of wisdom from the LDS church do we hear? Is it a plea to the government officials to follow the rule of law (evidence, arresting only those accused, etc.)? Is it a plea to mercifully allow the mothers to have access to their children? No! The LDS PR is simply “Don’t call them Mormons, we are the only real Mormons”. I am not ashamed of the Gospel, but I am ashamed at the reaction the of the Church of 501c of LDS.
April 14, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Did you see the local Catholic bishop went to pray with them?
April 14, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Don’t go overboard, ed42; self-loathing is never pretty.
April 14, 2008 at 3:05 pm
Ed, I’d like to see the church doing more; but the KSL and Deseret News coverage has been very good–one might even say sympathetic.
April 14, 2008 at 4:21 pm
[…] Messenger and Advocate is the go to place for coverage. […]
April 14, 2008 at 4:48 pm
They seperated them.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_8922745
April 14, 2008 at 4:52 pm
Ardis – they opened the ranch up to the media.
April 14, 2008 at 5:09 pm
the utah attorney general this “caiaphas shurtleff” got the legislature of utah to raise the age in utah from 14 to 15 because he knew this would allow the law enforcemtn to persecute the people whose religion he opposes.
And what is the difference between 14 yo and 15 yo anyway. one day??
And i can verify that none of the polyg girls are sluts and none have taken the LBT (low back tattoo). this is why they are being persecuted.
the local govrenment devils want all girls to be whores and sluts like their own wives and daughters. It makes them feel inferior when they think of the pure polyg girls but have to look at their own tattooed up whorish women. to be honest, i sympathize with them. those ugly faded tattoos combined with the stench of cigerette butts is a romance killer for sure.
April 14, 2008 at 5:25 pm
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080414/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=ApnWINruzbbEB0kl6.YfDPis0NUE
This report says moms with kids under 4 were able to stay.
That is so dumb the FLDS men offered to leave the ranch with CPS workers and they still won’t let the moms and kids back on.
In other domestic violence cases, a woman and her children is given an order of protection by a judge and the man has to leave the home, they aren’t even giving these FLDS women the same rights as woman who claim “abuse.” I know these women have not claimed abuse, but it was supposedly a call to a DV hotline that started this.
April 14, 2008 at 6:38 pm
Wow – there are a lot of interesting posts here. I live in Canada about one hour away from a Polygamus Sect (1/2 of which are loyal to Warren Jeffs from what I understand and the other to another man). While I don’t necessarily agree with how the Texas authorities have handled this, most of you seem to think they should have done nothing at all. lorena bobbit jeffs (interesting chosen name here by the way) very offensively states “….And i can verify that none of the polyg girls are sluts and none have taken the LBT (low back tattoo). this is why they are being persecuted. the local govrenment devils want all girls to be whores and sluts like their own wives and daughters.”.
I find that very offensive and it shows the ignorance from some of those opposing this raid as well. A girl doesn’t have to look like she’s from the 1700’s to be modest and decent. That kind of reaction is not going to win favour. It just shows how brainwashed and uneducated you are. Any religion that thinks that a girl of 14 is ready for marriage to any man, let alone one old enough to be her grand father, is sick. Any old man who would take a young girl like that is a pedophile, plain and simple.
I do hope this gets sorted out soon. I sincerely hope that children who were not abused are returned to their parents. However, I do hope that those that were abused are given a chance for a decent abuse free life away from their parents.
Maybe if those wanting to practice this type of lifestyle would do so as consenting adults only, the rest of us would not be so disturbed by it. Don’t be so quick to judge it as “religious persecution” when some facts speak for themselves – a pedophile is a pedophile no matter how religious he claims to be.
April 14, 2008 at 7:03 pm
I’m the first to say if the law has been broken, then there needs to be an investigation and proper steps taken. However, as strange as this sect may be, I don’t believe all have been involved in sexual abuse.
This Texas raid, is like saying we suspect there has been some abuse in house, so let’s arrest the whole neighborhood. Here are some thoughts I have:
1. Why didn’t CPS remove the men from the compound and keep the women and children at the ranch? At least they would have better facilities while CPS investigated the allegations.
2. Why are all the children removed? Even if some of the men/women/children have been involved in abuse, that doesn’t mean everyone has. There seems to be potential for serious infractions on constitutional rights. When the dust settles, I suspect there may be some law suites that the FLDS will pursue.
3. I also find it interesting that the Baptist Church provided the buses and some of the accommodations. Is there an influence from the Baptist Church for this type of reaction from Texas authorities? What church does the CPS department head and the arresting officers follow?
4. If gays have the right to marry in several states; why are these people not afforded the same right?
April 14, 2008 at 8:39 pm
This is an obscenity and abomination. What do they think they are doing? Seems the villains here are the Texas officials. What ever happened to putting the family first in this country?
No one says these children are beaten, battered, abused, neglected or any other kind of real abuse. Maybe their culture is different, and we should not let anyone get away with rape, but I bet if a 16 year old girl from any ‘hood in this country called up to say she had been raped and beaten she’d be told to get in line.
Maternity wards have 16 year old mothers in them all the time.
Meanwhile, oops- another child was just killed by an abusive parent. Must not have had been politically advantageous to save that one.
Put these children back in there homes, install some social workers that know what they are doing, and hope the police didn’t just make enemies of a bunch more U.S. citizens. I’m not too fond of this government myself right now.
Sincerely, Carla S. Easterling
April 14, 2008 at 9:46 pm
The difference here is “choice”. If a 16 year old chooses by her own free will to have sex and get pregnant, so be it. There was at least one 16 year old that has 4 children. And a CSP worker who is a friend said the youngest was 8. These children are just that, children. Let them grow up and make a choice to marry, weather they marry someone there age or their fathers, let it be their choice. Thats what this country is about freedom of choice.
April 14, 2008 at 10:06 pm
Storm troopers invading another culture without solid evidence, terrorizing the people, occupying their land, violating their religious temple. I don’t see the problem. We all voted for Iraq.
April 15, 2008 at 6:45 am
follow the money and politics. The texas governor wants to be the next vice presidental canditate. He needs to bump out Romney and and get huckabee’s supporters. This is turning out to be like the germans rounding up the Jews in world war 2. Texas has not yet found the alleged girl who supposedly made the complaint. the teenage pregnancy rate in most counties in texas is very much higher in than the poly community . Are they going to start going down every street in town rounding up those kids next?
April 15, 2008 at 7:04 am
Modest says “Any religion that thinks that a girl of 14 is ready for marriage to any man”
Read the history of Joseph Smith and Fanny Algers…
April 15, 2008 at 9:33 am
Jerry Lewis
April 15, 2008 at 11:36 am
to ed42 – I don’t care who has done this before (marrying children). Certainly, we are more educated in 2008 to know that this is not right. Let the children grow up and decide as adults whether they want to be married or not. Just because something has been done that way in the past for long periods of time doesn’t make it right. We have a responsiblity as a civilized society to protect our children -whether they be our own blood or our neighbours. This doesn’t mean I agree with the Texas authorities’ methods, as it appears quite extreme. However, using religion as a right to practice statutory rape is outrageous. For goodness sake, can these men not wait for adults to “spiritually marry”? There is something very sick about an old man wanting sex with a child.
April 16, 2008 at 4:45 am
Members of Mothers [edited] unite! Women who stand by watching their little girls [edited] have their supporters! LDS-the Taliban of the West indeed. Hiding behind “freedom of religion” to defend abuse, slavery, indoctrination, mental and physical torture and cruelty. I didn’t realize that was “Christian”. Poor little persecuted [edited], not able to practice [edited] freely.
As much as I dislike the police, I find it harder to believe the words of [edited] nuts.
Most of the women show all the signs of Stockholm Syndrome but the nit-wits posting here have no idea what that recognized phenomena suffered by the captors of terrorists means-but why bother thinking when you can just sound off with your puerile ideological rants?
April 17, 2008 at 2:09 pm
cynic, your so right. For anyone to defend this [edited] is just sad. The woman [edited] are taught to be deceitful to outsiders. These women may not have killed anyone, but the brainwashing is just as bad as the Manson women. This might be a shock to the childrens systems and the conditions may not be ideal, but Texas authorities are doing the best they can to help these children. The authorities are damned if they do, and damned if they don’t.
100 years ago women and men did marry young, they also died young. I hope that we have evolved past the old saying “If she bleeds, she breeds” The flds and some on this blog seem to still believe in it.
The raid needed to happen in order to bring an end to and expose the “American Taliban”
April 17, 2008 at 7:16 pm
I support the actions of the state of Texas. I generally don’t support intrusion into family matters, but by law the state has an obligation to investigate allegations of abuse, and it has been well known that the FLDS had patterns of marrying children to adults, bigamy, and other crimes. It is high time they intervened. I was happy when they changed the law so that 14-year-olds could not be married, and now they are taking additional responsibility that they would have liked to take earlier had they had a complaint. The FLDS women and children are so controlled that they dare not complain.
April 19, 2008 at 12:52 am
I blame this on the men of the house and the brainwashing they did on the women and children for their own agenda.It is my understanding that the women were sent to apply for welfare(our taxes)while the men hide behind the shirts of the women.It sounds a lot like pimping to me and the victims are the women and children.If the men are so proud of what they are doing why aren’t they showing their faces and protecting the women and children by coming forth and answering the questions and taking responsibility for their actions?
My fear is the adoption brokers will have a field day with the separation of Mothers and children to provide children for the infertile in the state of Texas.You know very similar to what The LDS Family services adoption agency does.
April 19, 2008 at 6:43 am
Let the children grow up and decide for themselves? Protect the children? You guys are kidding, right? These same moon-bat liberals are force-feeding homosexual propaganda into preschoolers. There is no choice but for children to accept, condone, and applaud homosexuality. And THAT is okay, right? But parents deciding who their children will marry is out of line? Are you serious?
The state only concerns itself with enforcing it’s own belief system. This has nothing to do with absolute right or wrong- only what the loony libs in power desire. And they desire to raise your children in the manner THEY see fit. You are all blind, deaf, and stupid if you don’t see it.
The loony liberal state only cares about doing WHAT THEY DECIDE IS RIGHT for these or any children.
That is called TYRANNY, not liberty friends.
April 20, 2008 at 8:07 pm
It sickens me to think that you approve of these children being returned to women who have been raised in a thought-numbing, destructive environment. When asked what they would say to convince people they would be capable of protecting their children their only response was that they followed the men and leaders who were pure and right.
Men who marry and impregnate several women and young girls are NOT pure and right. These women seeing the men who do those very things as paragons of light can not be in their right minds. They have been conditioned since birth to follow, suppress emotion and to accept polygamy as natural and “true.”
Furthering all of this, what of the young girls who have had children? I’m certain that the polygamist men and older women won’t allow them to claim their children, since it will only prove that they had sexual relations resulting in children at a young age. At the very least, keeping the children until it can be determined which mothers have which children is smart and the most fair.
As for all for all of the “god-fearing Christians” railing against the “liberal” mind-set behind this, I can only say one thing. Christ said to suffer the little children to come unto him, not to let them be physically or emotionally abused, forced into marriages and cut off from the world. He wanted them to have love, stability and free will.
April 20, 2008 at 8:15 pm
I stand for the following:
You can always know when someone is doing wrong when they have to exaggerate the facts in order to justify their actions, e.g., Waco, Texas, 1993. When you read the accounts of what is taking place surrounding the Yearning For Zion Ranch near Eldorado, Texas, reporters cannot call it a ranch or community, they cannot call the people mere members or residents or congregants, or say they are a group immersed in strict religious principles; but instead, they have to use inciting words such as cultists, clan, the compound, sect, fear, cyanide document, renegade. Clearly, the reporters are on a witch-hunt and purpose to demonize the group and place it in a notoriously bad light—calling into question the intentions and purposes of both the raid and the reporting.
Even the basis for the raid is bogus. Supposedly a young girl of sixteen by the name of Sarah who was pregnant with her second child, called in about being beaten, choked, and forced to have sex with her fifty year old “spiritual husband,” Dale Barlow. Of course this could not be reported as just a phone call, but to maintain the sinister appearance had to be reported as a “whispered telephone call.” But the problem is that the call now seems to be entirely bogus. There is no Sarah, and Dale Barlow is not a suspect. The entire raid whereby 416 children were forcibly removed from their homes (not compound), along with 139 women who followed them, was based on a hoax, a setup.
For four years the sheriff said he has had an informant in the group, and even so in that entire time has never been able to find cause to file any action against them. And now, based on one solitaire bogus call, they sprang into action and forcibly removed 416 children from their homes. One bogus call and the removal of 416 children? Isn’t this Stalinism? Where is the justification for this heinous act?
Marleigh Meisner, a spokeswoman for the state Child Protective Services (CPS), said that the agency is working with mental health and other experts to make the transition to foster housing for the children. My own familiarity with this agency is that it is often completely unjust, inaccurate, and unaccountable for its frequent misdeeds. Here now is just one more gross example of this. How can one bogus phone call justify 416 children being taken from their parents and placed in foster homes? It inexplicably cannot! That which feminized divorce laws could not do to utterly destroy these families, the Attorney General and CPS have sought to accomplish.
Furthermore, Meisner said that mental health professionals have been brought in to ensure a sense of “normalcy” for the children. Normalcy? What normalcy? I in no way agree with polygamy, as it is clearly wrong and there are some huge issues to be addressed regarding it. But frankly, there is no difference between polygamy and serial polygamy when someone is married several times, also called serial monogamy, or even multiple live-in relationships. Clearly, there is more family stability and less ill social consequences in polygamy than in any of these other net-equivalent practices that are frequently and freely carried out. So the question is begged here: How can anyone justify this “normalcy” that Meisner and her “professionals” have to offer?
These children were taken from homes that were far more orderly, intact, and healthy than 80 percent of the homes in America. The mothers stay with their children, who are not ignored, when in Meisner’s world 75 percent of women work outside the home. So tell me then, who is better off and has more normalcy? In the Yearning For Zion Ranch, undoubtedly divorce is near nonexistent. But outside that intact environment in CPS-world, divorce occurs at a staggering rate of over 50 percent; 37 percent of all births are now out-of-wedlock, nine times greater than what they were in 1950; and the marriage rate is half of what it was as recent as 1970. Today, only half of America’s households are traditional two-parent families, and many of those are not even both biological parents. This is Meisner’s normalcy.
If the children of these intact families are stripped from their parents and forced into this “normalcy” that CPS has to offer, there will now be at least a 30 percent chance that they will drop out of high school, a 50 percent chance that they will have premarital sex, and a 25 percent chance that the girls will contract a venereal disease. At least these young brides have intercourse with a spouse within the framework of a marriage. The CPS-world—hand out condoms in high school.
At Yearning For Zion, children are regarded as a reward and blessing and nary a child is ever considered to deserve that murderous act of being aborted in the womb; yet in CPS-world, one-third of all mothers have aborted their children, whereupon a staggering 3,500 babies are killed every single day. When in the wombs of their Yearning For Zion mothers, these now-abducted children were assured of having a safe and secure entrance into this world. So how is it then that CPS thinks they can provide like security when they now want to abort them from their mother’s care? They cannot.
The contrast of the dress of these modest women at Yearning For Zion and the immodest masculine appearance of the female authorities and staff who hold them hostage is stark. These mothers and daughters dress with dignity the way women used to dress before the Curse of 1920 when women began throwing off their modest appearance and taking on the appearance and the place of the man. And these mothers have every right to instill this virtue in their children. These ladies in fact put us to shame today, reminding us of what our nation once honorably upheld.
To bring these children into the CPS-world, do we now want them to have Paris Hilton and Brittany Spears as their role models and wear short skirts, revealing tops, and less-than-underwear swim suits, listening to some crude and repulsive rap artist? This is the normalcy CPS has to offer.
Furthermore, these children have never been exposed to the corrupting and deteriorating effects of television, entertainment, popular music, the internet, video games; and suddenly they would now face these, as though they are normal and right. Why do you think this group called their estate Yearning For Zion? They were not yearning for the attractions of this world, and it is both immoral and Stalinistic to take these children away from their parents and indoctrinate them into a culture that has failed in countless ways.
In Texas, a girl can marry at the age of sixteen with her parent’s written consent. When I married, I was at an age where I too had to have my parent’s consent. That was thirty-nine years ago and I am still married with five children. While Yearning For Zion should honor this marriage law, the fact is that there is nothing immoral about marrying at much younger ages. Our nation was built by families where girls would marry as young as fourteen. Even Mary, the mother of Yahshua, is believed to have been around the age of fourteen when the Holy Spirit impregnated her. And shocking to most, the patriarch, Isaac, married Rebekah when he was forty and she was a mere ten years of age. Can you imagine what the reporters would do with that one? So, this being immoral is not an issue.
Hypocrites make a big to-do about the marriage beds located in their temple, yet they have no evidence that they are used for anything other than honoring the consummation of marriage. The hypocrisy of these witch-hunters, these McCarthyites, is that they make exaggerated accusations against these people about the marriage beds, when Americans miserably fail to keep their own marriage beds undefiled—infidelity rates are as high as 50 percent and divorce at an equal rate. You hypocrites, it is every bit true: Why don’t you remove the log from your own eyes before you try to remove the speck from the eyes of the members of Yearning For Zion? Would that all marriages were held in such high esteem and the marriage bed be equally undefiled as these family-oriented people evidence.
It is reported, and is probably accurate, that the children are taught that they cannot trust anybody from the outside. Based on the shameful and disturbing state of America as revealed by these statistics, why should they tell them anything different? And based on this Stalinist raid where 416 children were forcibly removed from their homes and families based on a single bogus call, why should they believe anything less? And, based on what authorities did to them in Arizona in 1953 when a similar raid was carried out with public scorn, why indeed should they not trust the outside? And finally, with CPS’s history of shocking error in breaking up innocent homes, why again should they not trust the outside? The fact is, there is no wall keeping them in. Anyone who has wished has been free to leave. But they choose to be there, and to carry out this witch-hunt raid is shameful.
CPS’s Meisner said, “We want to keep their world as normal as possible. We also want to be certain that these children have gained a trust with us. We want these children to know that even if they may not have been safe in the past, they will be safe as long as they are with us.” The bigotry and blind error of that statement is astounding. CPS hides behind the guise of wanting what is best for the children, when they cannot provide it and will only harm them. This is America, Meisner, not Stalingrad, and these parents who are exhibiting more virtue than anything you have to offer are the only ones who have the right to make that decision.
To you and others, practice some much needed restraint, discretion, respect, and, yes, judgment regarding your own graver faults, considering the wisdom of Abraham Lincoln who concluded that to plow around such like-devoted people as these is the much wiser course.
———–
Gary Naler, author of “The Curse of 1920: The Degradation of Our Nation in the Last 100 Years,” can be reached at gary@thecurseof1920.com, phone: 573-729-5439. For more information, go to http://www.thecurseof1920.com or http://www.expertclick.com, search Naler.
April 21, 2008 at 1:09 am
Texas law says that a man can marry only one wife and she must be 16 or older. Therefore, there are no valid multiple marriages or marriages of girls less than 16 years of age. Some of these are simply unwed mothers and their children. If the State of Texas wants to take away the children because the mothers are unwed or less than 16 then do it throughout the state. I am sure they can find children who are less cared for under similar circumstances in the large cities. Many of the children of the single mothers on welfare in the cities will be pregnant before they are 16 years old. Why don’t they seize them? It seems the fathers at the ranch are providing child support without being ordered to do so by the courts.
If the State of Texas continues to act in such an idiotic fashion then the women of the ranch should “be fruitful and multiply”. They might teach their children that even though they might be captured by evil doers they should be true to their faith and try to act as missionaries of their faith while they are in captivity. A thousand missionaries might bring a little sense to the idiots.
April 21, 2008 at 10:23 am
I checked out Gary Naler’s website. Wow! Why is it that people tend to polarize on such extremes. If women had only stayed subjugated, we would have such a perfect society. Maybe perfect like Afghanistan under the Taliban or Iran or…. Yeah! looks like men in total control do a terrific job. I don’t consider myself a feminist by the typical definition, but it’s rantings like Naler’s that would push me that way. Scarey stuff. Go Hilary!! ( I didn’t read all of it, but from what I gather, Naler wouldn’t be too crazy for Obama either – seems to have some racist quotes in there as well. ).
I’m pretty sure slavery came before 1920 – so what’s the deal with that?? Doesn’t sound like pre 1920 was such a great time.
This is a ways off the FLDS issue, but I couldn’t help but respond after the posting above suggested we go to that dreadful website.
April 21, 2008 at 10:32 am
Oh – one more thing on John Reynold’s posting that I couldn’t help but notice. He mentions under the State conditions, these children will likely have a 30% highschool drop out rate. That would be a great improvement over the current FLDS rate considering they don’t get the chance to finish high school. (Many don’t even get the chance to start high school). Education is not a priority of the FLDS dear John.
I don’t hope the children stay a ward of the State. While I don’t agree with the FLDS teachings, I do agree that the majority are likely not abused and hope that just those that were are the ones removed and the parents prosecuted. I’m not anti-religion when it is practiced in such a way not to deny basic freedoms that include safe from phyical harm, and a decent education. I couldn’t care less about polygamy between consenting adults as long as they are paying the bill and not the welfare system. I hope the courts stay focused on abuse and leave the polygamy issue alone.
April 22, 2008 at 10:14 pm
Polygamy is both immoral and illegal. It makes slaves of women and thus is a violation of basic human rights. The two consenting adults argument sounds fair, but it really isn’t fair to the children who are born into polygamy. They have to fight for their father’s attention and affection, and the sibling rivalry can be pretty ugly.
I think the polygamists who think that a plurality of wives is a better way because the patriarchs of the old testament practiced it should look at their bibles again. Jacob’s sons planned to murder their brother until they realized it was more profitable to sell him into slavery. Hagar,Sarah’s maid who bore a son to Abraham was turned out in the desert to die. King David’s children committed incest and rape, one son tried to dethrone his father and slept with all of his father’s wives in public… Just one big happy family, every one of them!
April 25, 2008 at 11:04 am
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May 12, 2008 at 3:31 pm
These folks have made national news and have gotten the attention of the people. Why? It has been common practice in several states including Florida where my children were kidnapped by the government too. Anyone can make an anonymous call to an abuse hotline and the state can come take the children for years on end without any physical evidence of any abuse whatsover. As a parent accused of any abuse you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. If you prove yourself innocent a judge can ignore your evidence, tell you to shut up and force you to be represented by an attorney the judge appoints for you. The judge can just say she thinks you are crazy even when you have had an evauation by a licensed phychiatrist that says otherwise and throw your motions out of court. By the time you win your fight in a higher court the kids are all grown up! It is time for the people to unite and protect their families. Take this website to the next level… Contact me! I will contact other parents in FL and we’ll go above state levels and seek the protection of the US Constitution that guarantees all citizens a right to the persuit of happiness and liberty. That means the right to have a family! Unless there is some physical evidence, eye-witnesses who testify they saw something then the here say admissions should be eliminated in destroying happy families. I have no better purpose in life than to stand up for my family and the rights of my children’s families and all American Families. Please let me contribute to your cause as this is not just your cause it is the cause of all families regardless if they know it or not… Your religion is not the issue here… Well it is in the state’s eyes in your case but they will not admit that. Stereotyped, I agree, but the fact is you have a right to the persuit of happiness and liberty! Frank Wolak (941)779-4706 Florida
May 12, 2008 at 4:02 pm
WHERE IS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT?
May 29, 2008 at 3:43 pm
.Down through history and now in modern days there are acts committed throughout the United States and around the world where “normal” neighbors and people down the street or across town participate in all phases of what the FLDS are being accused without consequence. Unwed mothers throughout the country are on food stamps and getting government assistance for having children out of wedlock. Children are beaten, abused and killed usually by boyfriends as the mother turns her head the other way.
Just a few days ago a little 4 year old girl was beaten to death by a boyfriend because she wet herself while trying to use the potty here in Houston. There was no place on her little body that was not beaten to a pulp. Oh yes! Outside the FLDS community is really a wonderful, safe, fulfilling society.
My point is, at least the FLDS children had a home, nutritious food, a warm bed, prayer time, work time, play time.
The had discipline and siblings and adults there to teach and watch over them. Do you know how many children are abused in foster care? It is staggering mainly because the adults have no true interest in the child. They want the money from the state under the pretense they really care. I know there are some foster parents that do care and do a good job. But mostly it’s just something to do for money. The whole system needs to be changed.
How the CPS could pull such a dirty deed on little children is way beyond legal. It was just plain illegal. As stated in another post why don’t they go after ever unwed single underaged mother. It was religious persecution plain and simple and civil rights were violated. In this country we are suppose to have protection and rights granted us by the United States Constitution one of which innocent until proven guilty. What is this country coming to?
More and more parents are loosing their rights over their own flesh and blood. I believe in right and what happened in EL Dorado Texas was blatant and outright illegal, unconstitutional, shameful and any sensible person and parent need to be up in arms. It is not about polygamy. It is about civil right and being able to practice a religion without fear of reprisal.
They CPS could have handled this in a much more civil and compassionate way.
May 30, 2008 at 8:33 pm
In recent years, there have been numerous stories in newspapers around the world about the failures of the departments of Family Services and Social Services to do their respective jobs of monitoring and assisting children in dangerous situations. Do we ever read about a child murdered by a family that the Department of Children & Families or the Sheriff’s Office has not already investigated, usually more than once? What will it take to protect these innocent children?
These stories are a step in the right direction, but one wonders if perhaps they came too late. All the outrage in the world can’t resurrect a dead child.
Too many children have died as a result of wrong decisions by CPS. With power comes responsibility and accountability, which most officials ignore. A child welfare system so overwhelmed with children who DON’T need to be in foster care,the less time they have to find children in real danger.
The CPS is actually wrong on both sides more than half of the time. In fact, the figure was 80% by four different studies by four different independent organizations. The CPS took away children who were not abused nor neglected 80% of the time. The CPS passed up taking away children who were abused 80% of the time and left them in danger.
Let’s NOT allow these precious children’s death to be in vain – in the news one day, forgotten the next.
Children Who Didn’t Have to Die – Website http://suncanaa.com/
“The state is now more involved than it has ever been in the raising of children, and children are now more neglected, abused, and mistreated than they have been in our time. This is not a coincidence, and, with all due respect, I am here to tell you: It does not take a village to raise a child. – It takes a family.” – By Senator Robert Dole
June 24, 2008 at 5:00 pm
has anyone read the book “Escape”? It is a heart wrenching story of Meril Jessop’s(who is very powerful FLDS member) 4th wife and the abuse she and her children suffered at the hands of Warren Jeffs. It is an amazning story and anybody interested in this case should read the first hand experience. The author’s name is Carlyon Jessop. You need to read this book.
September 2, 2008 at 10:04 am
I’d really take some of these testamonials w/ a grain of salt. Or maybe I should say, consider your source:
http://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/flyer.do?personId=48807
April 16, 2009 at 8:59 am
thats said what people do to kids
April 16, 2009 at 9:01 am
thats really sad what people do to kids and how can they do that to the kids so they can sacr them for life to
November 29, 2009 at 12:20 am
You talk about the abuse and underage pregnancies in the rest of society but do you know what? IN THE REST OF AMERICAN SOCIETY WE CAN REPORT THAT WITHOUT FEAR OF EXCOMMUNICATION. If someone sexually abuses me or beats me, I can call the police and not fear that the prophet of God is going to take my children away from me. Where were you when the FLDS prophet was taking women and children away from men who weren’t “loyal” enough?? In normal american society, my husband can CHOOSE to marry rather than fear expulsion and excommunication for refusing to marry the 13-yr old girl that the prophet assigned to him. Children can go to school and speak with a counselor who will not ignore his/her complaints and say that beatings are normal and you have to obey your father even if he abuses you.
Does rape and abuse occur in every society? Yes. If you are raped or abused can you report it to the authorities? Not in the FLDS. Contact with the outside world is discouraged, reports of abuse and rape are ignored within the Church, and you can loose your children, your spouse(s) your house, all your property if you piss off the “prophet”. The prophet can REDISTRIBUTE your wives and children like cattle if he pleases, so don’t talk about how “their culture is just different”. Women are not valued as individuals with personal freedom so you don’t know which marriages are voluntary and which are forced (making it rape). The only way women can survive is through absolute obedience to their husbands and following the teachings of the “church” i.e. the prophet/cult leader. The women should be allowed to stay with their children, but most of the fathers don’t even know the names of all their children (one of the leaders had an estimated 400+ children!?!). How can the same people opposed to same-sex marriage believe that these children need to be returned to that cult? A marriage does not consist of a 70 yr old man, his 40 subservient wives most of whom he married before their first periods, and his hundreds of kids who he never even talks to. The men, women, and children are all victims of brainwashing and fear, and the priesthood is to blame for allowing all of these abuses to go ignored. I have no moral problem with polygamy as long as the men and women enter into it voluntarily and as equals. The polygamy in the FLDS satisfies neither of these requirements.