Photo By Trent Nelson
The heartache and atrocities in Texas continue. From the Deseret News, another heart wrenching account by the abused FLDS mothers. I am simply dumb founded at what passes for justice, or even compassion in West Texas.
It is beyond my ability to comprehend the pain and suffering these mothers now experience. It is equally beyond my comprehenson that one human being can and did, by choice, inflict such pain on these mothers. From this morning’s Deseret News:
SAN ANGELO, Texas — Texas authorities executed a carefully orchestrated plan to force dozens of Fundamentalist LDS Church mothers into leaving their children behind in state care, said women who spoke to reporters at the YFZ Ranch Monday night.
“They said they were going to bring us together so we could see each other, and they lied,” said Marie, a 32-year-old mother of three children, ages 9, 7 and 5, who were separated from her earlier that day.
“They read a court order and said, ‘Your children are ours.'”
Marie sobbed as she wrapped her arms around a heavy log pole on the porch of a home on the ranch, squeezing it as if it were her missing child.
“I tried so hard to protect my children. They don’t know that people hurt each other. They’ve been so protected and loved,” she said as tears streamed down her face.
Women of all ages and children staying at two shelters were bused midafternoon on Monday to the San Angelo Coliseum. The move came after the Deseret News quoted mothers staying at the shelter who said their children were getting sick and wanted to go home.
Once the women and children were at the facility, state child protective services workers broke the women into two groups, putting mothers with children younger than 5 years old into one group, with the rest of the mothers or those without children there in another group.
This is turning–or is about to turn into a media nightmare for Texas. Each day brings a new realization that the Texas CPS authorities have bungled this operation from the start. Imagine what we will know tomorrow–it is frightening:
“They told the children that the mothers were needed in another room, that we were going to get some information,” Marie said. “The children didn’t want us to go. They wanted to be with us.”
As soon as the mothers were inside the room and the door was closed, police officers and child welfare workers entered, surrounding the women while a court order was read to the group.
According to the women, the court order said, “You are to leave this building. Your children are with us. You have a choice. You can go to a women’s violence shelter or go home to the ranch.”
“I asked if I could go say goodbye,” said Marie of her little boy. “I told him I would come back, but they wouldn’t let me.”
In an unprecedented display of public emotion and openness, the women spoke in small groups or individually with reporters, who took pictures and video. FLDS men, both young and old, watched the event unfold, listening as the women described how their children were taken from them.
Phyllis, a grandmother of some of the children, said she was horrified at what was happening. None of the women were allowed to ask questions when the authorities told them they were being separated to receive some “important information.”
“I could never have dreamed this,” she said, adding she has a daughter with a 2-month-old child now at the coliseum.
Another woman, 21-year-old Vilate, said she had a sick feeling that the authorities would “do something” when they began to load them into the buses.
“Everyone was telling us we’d all be together today. How could somebody do that?” she asked. “Who is going to be holding the little 3-year-old boy I was caring for? They would just tell you one thing and then do another.”
Many of the women spoke of meeting a few people over the past 10 days who were kind to those being held by the state.
“But it seemed like as soon as we found someone we liked and who we could talk to, someone who was kind and sympathetic, they reassigned that person,” said Vilate, whose dark eyes clouded as she spoke. “We need help so bad.”
Esther, 32, said she tried to stay with her children even as the authorities told her if she didn’t leave she would be arrested.
“They told the children, ‘Come, come play with us,’ and the children said, ‘No, I want to go with mother,”‘ said Esther, who has two girls, 6 and 8, now in state custody. “The children are all crying now. I told my daughter earlier, when they were putting us in different rooms, to be brave and to keep praying.”
Nancy said authorities have told her 22-year-old daughter that she can’t possibly be that old, that she is lying.
“We are American citizens. We are legal, law-abiding and a peaceful people. We have tried to cooperate the best we could, and we were promised we would get our children back,” she said. “We have literally been terrorized.”
Another mother, Monica, said Texas authorities pursued the children after receiving an unsubstantiated allegation that an underage mother was pregnant and trying to escape the YFZ Ranch. The girl has not been found.
“Now they are trying to get another girl to confess that she is the girl they are looking for. That girl doesn’t exist,” said Monica, who earlier was barred from seeing her children because she wasn’t at the ranch the day the state raided it.
“Anyone with a mother knows how we’re feeling right now. What would they do if they were in our place? If we had known this was ahead of us, we couldn’t have lived another day.”
Texas officials removed 416 children from the YFZ Ranch belonging to the FLDS Church last week as part of a sweeping investigation into allegations of sexual and physical abuse.
What is equally baffling, as some commentors have observed, is the deafening silence from organizations like the ACLU, the New York Times Editorial or Op Ed pages, or the Los Angeles Times. It’s as though what happens in West Texas, stays in West Texas. There but for the Grace of God go we.
The Salt Lake Tribune has similar reports this morning:
ELDORADO, Texas – Concealing their anger but not their tears, more than two dozen women of a polygamous sect told reporters they were surrounded by troopers and forced to leave their children in state custody Monday.
In an extraordinary break from past reticence, the women met with reporters at the YFZ Ranch hours after leaving their children and accused the Texas Child Protective Services of lies and trickery.
“They just as well line us up and shoot us as take our children away,” said Donna, a 35-year-old mother who left behind a 10-year-old daughter. The women used only their first names.
After a week’s stay at two makeshift shelters – described by one woman as a
“concentration camp” – state authorities moved women and children to the San Angelo Coliseum on Monday, promising them they were being taken to a “bigger, better” place. They were told they would be reunited with other family members, the women said.Once at the coliseum, the women were separated according to the ages of their children.
Mothers of those age 6 or older were herded into a room, each one flanked by a CPS worker. More than 50 troopers, according to the women, lined the room. The women were given a choice: return to the ranch or go to a domestic violence shelter.Their children, they were told, were no longer theirs. “They told us the state is in charge of
them now,” said Donna.
Their children are no longer theirs? What? Is CPS forgetting somewhere deep in the heart of West Texas someone is at least pretending some due process is scheduled, in the form of legal hearings to be held beginning this week. But, the hubris, arrogance, and callousness of Texas is indeed telling.
Apparently things are not going well for Texas’ hunt of the alleged complaining victim either:
State authorities raided the YFZ Ranch on April 3 after receiving a report from a local family violence shelter that a 16-year-old girl telephoned several times, claiming she had been abused by her “spiritual” husband.
The women from YFZ Ranch said Monday the girl does not exist and the calls were a hoax.
“It is a bogus person. It is a person they made up. That person does not exist on this land,” said Joy.Janet said no one has heard of the girl named in a search warrant. “She is a fictitious person.”
Another girl with a name similar to that of the girl in the search warrant was grilled for hours by investigators, Janet said. They kept telling her ” ‘You are this girl. Why don’t you want our help?’ ” she said. State officials said Monday they still have not located the caller but are “hopeful” she is among the children in custody.
In a related article, Peggy Fletcher Stack, of the Salt Lake Tribune wrote an article about sympathy from some main stream Mormons toward their FLDS Sisters and Brothers (disclaimer–I am quoted in this article):
Some Mormons, especially those with polygamist ancestors, feel conflicted as they watch Texas authorities separate FLDS families on the basis of alleged abuse.
They don’t support the practice of polygamy today, yet these Latter-day Saints see the faces of their great-grandparents in the FLDS women and children.
They hear echoes of 19th-century salacious – and false – rumors about their Mormon forefathers seducing women and having sex on temple altars. And they worry about government officials having power to decide what’s best for children.
“As the FLDS are, we once were,” says Guy Murray, a lawyer in Southern California who has been blogging daily in defense of the FLDS community’s civil rights. “Back then, we were the ones in the compound. We’ve all seen the photos of our brethren who went to prison rather than give up their wives.”
Since the LDS Church officially ended its practice of polygamy in 1890, Mormonism has become a “more respected, mainstream, conservative government-supporting institution,” Murray says. “But we are just one popular opinion away from where these folks are.”
Others agreed, including prominent Salt Lake Attorney Blake Ostler:
Utah attorney Blake Ostler agrees. “I would never condone child abuse or the kinds of marriage between older men and young women. But the answer is not . . . blatant disregard for their constitutional rights.”
But, as I told Ms. Stack, I think it goes beyond religious affiliation. All Americans should be concerned about the Constitutional abuses we see in West Texas:
“It goes beyond religious ties. This is an issue that every American should be concerned about – whether LDS, FLDS, Muslim or atheist.”
And, as Elizabeth Harmer-Dionne was quoted at the end of the article:
“But I am a die-hard supporter of religious liberties. If they can invade the FLDS temple, they can invade my temple.”
It is not such a hard stretch to imagine a similar battering ram to the one used in Texas, beating down the doors of the Salt Lake City Temple.
Update, Connor Boyack has created an online petition for those wanting to do something about this travesty.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Complete text of Peggy Fletcher Stack article:
Mormons feel torn over FLDS raid
By Peggy Fletcher Stack
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 04/15/2008 12:55:20 AM MDT
Some Mormons, especially those with polygamist ancestors, feel conflicted as they watch Texas authorities separate FLDS families on the basis of alleged abuse.
They don’t support the practice of polygamy today, yet these Latter-day Saints see the faces of their great-grandparents in the FLDS women and children.
They hear echoes of 19th-century salacious – and false – rumors about their Mormon forefathers seducing women and having sex on temple altars. And they worry about government officials having power to decide what’s best for children.
“As the FLDS are, we once were,” says Guy Murray, a lawyer in Southern California who has been blogging daily in defense of the FLDS community’s civil rights. “Back then, we were the ones in the compound. We’ve all seen the photos of our brethren who went to prison rather than give up their wives.”
Since the LDS Church officially ended its practice of polygamy in 1890, Mormonism has become a “more respected, mainstream, conservative government-supporting institution,” Murray says. “But we are just one popular opinion away from where these folks are.”
Utah attorney Blake Ostler agrees. “I would never condone child abuse or the kinds of marriage between older men and young women. But the answer is not . . . blatant disregard for their constitutional rights.”
Mormon officials issued a statement reiterating the church’s anti-polygamy stance. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has “no affiliation whatever with the Texas-based sect,” the statement said.
That wasn’t enough for Murray. “They’re more concerned with the church’s public image than they seem to be at what’s happening to these [FLDS] people,” he says. “It goes beyond religious ties. This is an issue that every American should be concerned about – whether LDS, FLDS, Muslim or atheist.”
It’s unclear, though, how many Mormons share such views. A Dan Jones & Associates poll of 314 people reported in the LDS Church-owned Deseret Morning News revealed that 31 percent of Utahns believe Texas authorities were definitely justified in removing the children and another 31 percent believed the actions were probably justified; 13 percent of those polled believed the actions were probably not justified and 6 percent said they were definitely not justified. The poll has a margin of error of 5.7 percentage points.
“I vacillate between deep sympathy for people who are simply trying to follow what they believe and a worry that their entire social structure may engender abuse,” says Janet Gerrard-Willis, a Utah mother and blogger at feministmormonhousewives.org.
But, says Garrard-Willis, who descended from polygamists on both sides, “people make the same accusations about my church.”
Elizabeth Harmer-Dionne, a Boston attorney, is also torn. She sees differences between the past Mormon polygamy and today’s FLDS. The former involved only about 20 percent of the larger LDS population. Brigham Young allowed any woman who was unhappy to divorce her husband, thus allowing women more choices.
“My ancestors worked things out fine,” says Harmer-Dionne, who is still not a fan of today’s polygamist groups.
“I saw a lot of abuse at a compound when I was at Bountiful High School,” she says. “But I am a die-hard supporter of religious liberties. If they can invade the FLDS temple, they can invade my temple.”
pstack@sltrib.com
Messenger and Advocate 
April 15, 2008 at 4:57 am
This is horrible! What can we do about this? I still remember the nightmare that I had almost 20 years ago when my 5 children, ages 7, 6, 4, 3 and 2 were playing in the fenced-in backyard. A “Christian” neighbor reported to CPS that the children were being abused because they were barefoot. Caseworkers came to our house to investigate. We were able to quell their fears, mostly, I believe, because we look very normal and speak in an educated, middle-class manner. Even this small affront made me feel terrified and violated. I was aware that they could take my children from me at any time and I could do nothing about it. Accusations can be made by anyone. Authorities need to be careful to investigate in a way that is sensitive to the family. I believe that when abuse is truly taking place it is very difficult to hide.
Texas authorities are now harrassing these families and will soon find themselves in legal difficulty. Can’t they work with the families to keep them together on the ranch, and come in and observe the families separately over a period of time?
If the goal is to give support to those who wish to extricate themselves from this lifestyle, they are going about it in the wrong way.
April 15, 2008 at 5:00 am
Wow Guy. I am speechless.
And to second BiV, do you know what I, personally, can do about this outrage?
April 15, 2008 at 5:16 am
BiV, that is absolutely terrifying.
April 15, 2008 at 5:59 am
We have to find a way to work together to help these people. I wrote a letter to the Governor of Texas but I don’t feel like that is all I should do. Maybe we could start a petition or something but I have no idea how to go about that or if anyone would even care. I just pray a miracle will happen on Thursday and the kids will get to go home.
April 15, 2008 at 6:04 am
As many Europeans say “all is possible in the US”. I am speachless!
April 15, 2008 at 6:38 am
Guy, take down the comment by “Samson.” The last thing anybody needs is crap like that! (I cannot continue to read and support your blog if that comment remains.)
April 15, 2008 at 6:57 am
Let’s see if I’ve got this story right so far…
1. A phantom caller claims abuse at the FLDS site. Perhaps the Texas CPS are channeling and now we have proof of the spirit world?
2. Based on this phantom (made up?) call an entire town is locked down, its children kidnapped, and nowhere is the phrase “due process” uttered.
3. Children are interrogated using Guantanamo tactics attacking everything they hold as reality in their religious world view.
4. The children are then torn from their mothers arms, with the families being told that “these children are no longer yours.”
All of this happening with no substantiated proof that a crime has been committed other than an odd group desiring to live their constitutionally guaranteed right to freedom of religion, which the government has no power to pass any law about.
I have the notion that the Texas law-enforcement thugs that have perpetrated this travesty were actually hoping for a Waco-like situation where they would end up burning all of the evidence and patting each other on the back for helping to “keep Texas safe.”
April 15, 2008 at 6:57 am
Guy, I’m as outraged by this situation as you are but comment #6 has got to go.
April 15, 2008 at 7:03 am
It’s worth noting that, if anyone were to do what Samson suggests, if it were against a federal judge, it would be a serious federal offense, and I’m assuming that threatening/intimidating/assaulting a state judge is a serious, serious felony, too.
I’m sure Guy will take that comment down (and hopefully this one, too) once he’s up and looking at his computer, but it’s still early out west.
April 15, 2008 at 7:17 am
All,
My apologies for a previous comment. I am not near a reliable internet connection this morning, and perhaps all day. I will try to monitor as best I can. I have removed the offensive comment. Anyone who knows me at all knows I do no tolerate offensive comments of any kind on this site.
Thank you for the emails and concerns. I am receiving emails on my Palm Treo, which alerted me to this problem. I appreciate the heads up, and pray people will PLEASE comment responsibly. I repudiate any suggestion by anyone suggesting any improper course of action.
April 15, 2008 at 7:51 am
Perhaps an online petition can be started, to collect (digital) signatures to be sent to the Texas Governor?
April 15, 2008 at 8:01 am
You may have mentioned this in an earlier post (I haven’t read them all), but I was alarmed recently by a report that Texas authorities took away cell phones from the FLDS women. What was the legal justification for that? They’re adults who haven’t been charged with a crime.
I realize that in this country that parental rights aren’t absolute, and the state does have the authority to deal with child abuse. But everything I’ve read about this whole mess lately suggests that the state has overstepped its bounds.
I don’t care that the FLDS is a polygamous sect. Unless it can be demonstrated that indeed these kids have indeed been abused, these people should be left alone.
April 15, 2008 at 8:02 am
Guy, I can’t thank you enough for providing this service for the rest of us interested in this story. I have to admit, my earlier judgment that Texas was doing right by the FLDS is being challenged by all this information.
April 15, 2008 at 8:14 am
It’s only a small effort, but I’ve started an online petition that I invite everybody to sign. Once we’ve obtained enough signatures, I’ll email it to all relevant Texas authorities.
Free the Innocent FLDS – Petition
Please spread it far and wide.
April 15, 2008 at 8:18 am
Look at this, is this the same lady selling the book and who criticized them being self sufficient in the interviews? Did she first say the AZ call was legit and then later admit to making the call herself? I might be reading it wrong.
Look at the bottom
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/2008/04/questions-raised-about-call.htm
Here goes the link:
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/04/12/20080412flds-az.html
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/0411cps0411.html
April 15, 2008 at 8:30 am
I question why the FLDS has been so secretive for so many years and now when abuse is suspected and they are treated as anyone else who was suspected of abuse would be treated, they now let in TV cameras to show their heartache and sorrow. While I feel for their pain as mothers, I question their motives and of course their hidden lifestyle. Freedom of religion does not allow you to break the law!
April 15, 2008 at 8:33 am
re # 16 — did they break the law?
April 15, 2008 at 8:37 am
Presumably, they are living in contravention of Texas’ bigamy statute, although I haven’t researched the issue.
But they removed the children on the basis of child abuse. Is there evidence of child abuse for the 400+ kids removed?
April 15, 2008 at 8:40 am
if they are abusing children, having sex with minor children…YES they are breaking the law. Just because you claim religious freedom, put a fence around your compound doesn’t mean you aren’t held to the laws of this nation. When children are reported to be in danger, they are taken away from the suspected danger until it is found if a danger indeed exists. That is what is taking place…just because it involves a religous sect and a large amount of children doesn’t mean anything wrong is being done by law officials. If one child is being abused…that’s one too many!!
April 15, 2008 at 8:41 am
Guy,
Okay, so at first I didn’t find much wrong with the state of Texas’ actions, but they’ve clearly gone beyond the pale, basically because they can, and because no one can stop them—or no one will. Where are the Texas Christians? Are they showing their true colors? I bet they would be just as silent if the FLDS were Muslim. Damn hypocrites!
April 15, 2008 at 8:43 am
if they are abusing children, having sex with minor children…YES they are breaking the law.
Are they abusing children and having sex with minor children?
April 15, 2008 at 8:46 am
Replying to nnanosredna,
The question is are the FLDS being “secret” or “private”?
Are you open to others about your sexual habits? Are you being “secret” or “private”?
Do you talk outside your home about intensely personal beliefs, feelings, intimacies? If not, are you being “secret” or “private”?
We have an understanding in this country of a “right to privacy”. If no laws are being broken, my business, your business, and our neighbor’s business is nobody else’s business.
April 15, 2008 at 8:49 am
re #21 That is what the law officials are determining. In any abuse case they have to interview children, in this case, over 400 children, and they remove them from their enviroment to do this. The law officials aren’t doing anything different in this abuse case than they would in any other. If no abuse is found, then the children will be returned…again I ask though, why such the anger against people who are trying to help children. Even if one child is being abused…that’s one too many. One child called and reported being abused, don’t forget that.
April 15, 2008 at 8:52 am
re #22 I agree with you. What I’m saying is that they don’t follow the laws…they don’t pay all their taxes, they depend on the welfare system when they are able to fund companies, have multiple expensive vehicles and they want people to stay out of their lives. And for many years we have looked the other way, but when child abuse is suspected we don’t look the other way. And then they want the sympathy of the nation…they want us to see the women crying. Where are the men?
April 15, 2008 at 8:56 am
Guy:
The more I read about this, the more conviced I am that a great injustice is being done. Thank you for opening my eyes to this. I find it hard to believe this is happening right here in the USA.
April 15, 2008 at 8:57 am
If one child is being abused…that’s one too many!!
No one here, I can assure you, disagrees with that statement. No one here is advocating or defending child abuse of any sort. But if one child is being abused, then remove him or her from his or her home, and prosecute his or her parents. It seem clear that not all 416 children the Texas authorities have taken from their homes under false pretenses and lies were or are being abused.
April 15, 2008 at 8:58 am
One child called and reported being abused, don’t forget that.
And that one child has yet to be found. It is possible that said child does not exist, and that the phone call was a hoax. Don’t forget that.
April 15, 2008 at 9:00 am
If no abuse is found, then the children will be returned
This is the part that is not clear from the news stories. The latest media reports, as Guy has provided, note that the mothers have now been separated from the children and there is talk of foster homes.
nnanosredna, you haven’t been reading carefully if you think that anyone on this blog at any time has suggested looking the other way in situations of child abuse. Removing 400+ children — all of the children in an entire village — because one child in the village reported abuse against herself seems an unprecedented move, even for the heavy-handed state of Texas.
Eric, so true. Although I suppose it shouldn’t surprise us. As much as I hate to admit it, there is a long history of state action based on prejudice in this country.
April 15, 2008 at 9:01 am
nnanosredna,
The state of Texas didn’t let the men accompany the children; therefore, the men can’t be there crying and missing their children. The men were separated from their children a week and half (or more) ago.
April 15, 2008 at 9:03 am
again I ask though, why such the anger against people who are trying to help children.
I have two reasons to be suspicious and angry with the people who are supposedly trying to help the children.
1. Because they have violated the childrens’ and mothers’ constitutional rights in their efforts to “help.”
2. Because I don’t believe that they know how to correctly “help” these children, if in fact, child abuse was/is occurring. The FLDS have a worldview and mindset that is not easily understood, especially by those “enlightened” souls trying to “help” who can’t comprehend children not watching TV, eating processed foods, and coloring with crayons. When they conclude that these children are “weird” and “not of this world”, it’s hard for me to believe that they have the understanding to help these children.
April 15, 2008 at 9:07 am
re #24 Don’t paint with such a broad brush. Some polygamy groups fit your description. From the news that I’ve read this group built roads, sewage treatment, a place of worship, and many other improvements on their property. They take no government support. They work largely in construction donating the money they make to “the church” and the church gives them back an amount that covers their wants and needs. The goal of a group like this that has “all things in common” is that there is no poverty.
As a 501c3 registered church, they are essentially living in a monastic order and need pay no taxes, just as our churches don’t.
If child abuse is suspected, then THAT family should be targeted. I’ll bet we all have a child abuser within the block we each live in.
Where are the men? Men don’t cry; they get angry. I admire them for their restraint.
Texas had absolutely nothing on them, so could do nothing to them. Then they thought they had something, a phantom victim who no one can find. They’ve jumped the gun and possibly violated the constitutional and civil rights of hundreds of people.
April 15, 2008 at 9:21 am
Christopher,
Exactly and how can they even make an assessment that they are “at risk” for abuse having no experience with a conservative subculture?
April 15, 2008 at 9:21 am
If only one child reported the abuse and this community is so secretive, then the only way to find that child is to remove all of the children. Ever heard of peer pressure…I’m sure that one child is feeling the pressure of all those children who are missing their families. This is a very controlling enviroment…women are only allowed to drive vehicles without license plates so they can be spotted by their husbands so if they try fleeing they are easily spotted…houses are not finished completely so they don’t pay property taxes on a completed house. Sound like a healthly enviroment?
April 15, 2008 at 9:23 am
While I find this extremely disturbing I try to remember that there is definitely some evidence that a few girls are being married at a too young age.
From reading the affidavit I count:
2 reports from FLDS children of a girl who is 16 and married with a baby.
1 report of a sixteen year old with a new baby (can’t tell if she is the same as identified as the two children)
1 report of a woman who says she is 18, though the worker thinks she is 16 and was suppressed by the presence of her husband.
3 reports of women over 18, (18, 19, and 20 respectively) at least one of whom might have had children as early as age 16 (although at that point in time Texas age of consent w/ parental permission was 14, w/o parental permission was 16- I hope no one is going to argue for ex-post facto laws). These in particular create a difficult question as legally they are now adults- can you take an adult women into protective custody against her will based on a belief of past abuse?
1 report a girl estimated by the worker to be 16, with a 2 year old child. Attached to this is the statement of an 8 year old that this girl is 16 and has 4 children. (This contradicts some of the girls statements- so I would not be so sure about this one).
All of these are unfortunately double heresy as presented in the affidavit. (Not saying this is false, just saying that because of this it’s harder to tell exactly what the workers learned as it is not the workers reporting, it is another persons summary of the workers report on their interviews.)
Also, the husbands ages were: 33, 38, 40, and 40- Not the 50 and 60 year olds we keep hearing about.
I’m not so certain they are going to have any actionable evidence of marriages before age 16 (current Texas law allows marriage at age 16 w/ parental permission).
There was clear evidence of polygamy being gathered, and I can’t help but feel that case they are building is going to go like this:
1: Polygamous marriages are not legal
2: Therefore it matters not if the parents gave permission for their 16 year old to marry, they are not married.
3: Therefore, their “husbands” are guilty of statutory rape (and I guess the parents as well).
Not I’m not sure how I feel about that. I can see the legal reasoning, but it’s a far cry from the horrors they keep talking about in the Media.
Essentially… it seems to me the case they are building is not about abuse as much as it is attacking polygamy… It also seems to me that the lesson Texas officials took from the cautions they received from Utah about the Short Creek Raid was not to avoid a massive raid, but instead to control the media so as to create a lynch mob mentality.
Maybe there is some more evidence yet to come forward. I sure hope so, cause otherwise this is going to be a mess.
April 15, 2008 at 9:39 am
nnanosredna, I submit that you know nothing of this group, other than the wildly hyped news reports of recent days. You are no better than Cotton Mather, and your attitudes are exactly those responsible for the murders of so-called “witches” at Salem.
You also misunderstand — wilfully? ignorantly? — the main concern of many of us here. No, you *don’t* remove ALL children of a community because of a single report of abuse of one child. There is no allegation at all — even by the wildest anti-FLDS fanatics — that boys were being mistreated. There is no allegation that girls younger than teens were being mistreated. So why do they take all the children, all the boys and all the little girls? Find the girl asking for help, if she exists. Take other young girls into protective custody if you see evidence of pregnancy or maternity. Take all the girls 12 and older into custody, even, if you think they’re at imminent risk. But there is no possible justification for taking all the children.
What you don’t seem to realize is that if Texas can do this to the FLDS, anybody else can do it to any other unpopular group. A child died a week or ten days ago because his parents prayed over him rather than taking him to the doctor — are you advocating taking away all the children of all the conservative Christian and faith-healing movements out there? If not, you’re inconsistent. If so, you deserve whatever happens to you and your family once you have destroyed the Constitutional protections you would invalidate for the rest of us.
April 15, 2008 at 9:39 am
I was all ready to believe that there was serious abuse going on at this FLDS ranch, but I can usually tell when somebody is playing me, and right now I get the feeling that the Texas officials have been trying to control the media story so as to push my buttons into supporting their actions based on emotion instead of facts or evidence.
I don’t like it, and my bias is now moving away from the FLDS being child abusers to wondering why Texas is acting so defensive and secretive. (Granted I still suspect there are major problems in the FLDS community with abuse, but it’s starting to appear to me that it is not as widespread as I had believed.)
By the way, those pictures of inside the FLDS homes were nothing like what I expected. (Although I don’t know exactly what I expected- I’m starting to realize how biases I was about this group).
I was particularly interested in the kitchens, as in older, more traditional cultures, the state of the kitchen says a lot about the status of women in a home.
If a kitchen has the latest stove, and other cooking or housekeeping equipment it usually means a high status (in a traditional sense) for the wife. Historically the stove was the big thing.
In fact you can see echoes of this in modern culture in mother’s day gifts that tend toward cooking and cleaning appliances.
I looked at the kitchen and thought it looked surprisingly normal… and was that a coffee maker behind the guy’s shoulder!?!
April 15, 2008 at 9:43 am
If they are going to attack polygamy, then why don’t they prosecute under the relevant bigamy statute, which is likely drafted so at to catch those cohabiting with their spouses which will include people who are not technically married (like the FLDS at YFZ).
April 15, 2008 at 9:48 am
This is not somebody else’s problem.
This is not an isolated event.
I always wondered why all these government types and elitists all wanted to ban firearms.
I just couldn’t make any sense of it.
Then I read a Professor out of Hawaii, R.J. Rummel by name. He coined the term: DEMOCIDE.
DEMOCIDE: MURDER BY GOVERNMENT
“Governments have murdered hundreds of millions of their citizens and those under their control.”
I think we all realize that Orwell’s prophetic novel, ‘1984’ is pretty much our reality today. We even have “face crime” in the nation’s airports.
America’s populace is drugged by media and consumer greed. Our people have been taught to be absorbed with self and not to care about the other.
That is why this is going on, because the people let the government get away with this and I tell you, brothers and sisters, that the time to stand up is now, it should have been in 1993.
Truth will come to light; murder cannot be hid long
—-Shakespeare, Merchant of Venice
The FBI played over and over again the song “These Boots are Made for Walking” which contains the line, “and if you play with matches you know you’re gonna get burned.”
http://www.carolmoore.net/waco/TDM-08.html
negotiation transcript of Special Agent Jim Cavanaugh telling Steve Schneider,
“someone in there should buy some fire insurance.”
http://www.wizardsofaz.com/waco/picturethis.html
April 15, 2008 at 9:49 am
re # 36 — was that a coffee maker behind the guy’s shoulder!?!
Why not? The prohibition specifically on coffee is a twentieth-century LDS characteristic.
April 15, 2008 at 10:00 am
Cicero that kitchen sparkled..*gasp* the men must help thier wives clean too.
April 15, 2008 at 10:03 am
THE ACLU, has NEVER, EVER defended the 2nd Amendment of the Bill of Rights. In fact they have ENDORSED, draconian gun bans.
The ACLU supports that which has helped to destroy our nation, never supporting the Bill of Rights when it supports traditional America.
The ACLU is nothing more than shocktroop for the left.
Either submit or the government will crush you that is the message at all levels of government.
The constitution is hanging by a thread and a scissor is already beginning to cut.
April 15, 2008 at 10:54 am
Guy look at this article your blog is in it:
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_8927976
April 15, 2008 at 11:12 am
I’m getting an eerie sense of deja vu. This is just a tad reminiscent of Waco. I’m sure glad there wasn’t a violent standoff. But the enormity of the responses and the weakness of the affidavits seem to be in common.
Ardis makes a great case in pointing out that there have been no allegations concerning boys or girls younger than 12 (I think puberty was the original word used), but that all boys and all girls were removed anyway.
What I find strange is that sequestered interviews (wherein people who have already been interviewed wouldn’t be able to “contaminate” others who have yet to be interviewed) by CPS with all girls 12 and over could have occurred on FLDS property. And could been conducted with less manpower than what was used in the removal, and certainly with much less trauma.
If the public is being lied to and manipulated here, it makes one wonder what really happened at Waco. There are several similarities.
April 15, 2008 at 11:22 am
Guy, this is as usual a great post. Thanks for taking the time to provide the proper perspective. I’m going to link to this post at M*.
April 15, 2008 at 11:28 am
“This is just a tad reminiscent of Waco.”
One of the headlines I saw when the raid first happened was something to the tune of, “We Hope It’s Not Another Waco,” obviously quoting someone involved in the raid.
April 15, 2008 at 11:50 am
Do the Texas authorities have a clue that their own actions are making Waco-style outcomes more likely in the future? The FLDS were peaceful and cooperative (more or less) when the authorities arrived, and look at how they’ve been treated — they are all presumed guilty and treated accordingly. The stupid actions of some of the Texas authorities have KO’d their own credibility. If Texas law enforcement types get a Waco-like reception when they try stunts like this in the future, they have only themselves to blame.
April 15, 2008 at 11:52 am
Do the Texas authorities have a clue that their own actions are making Waco-style outcomes more likely in the future? The FLDS were peaceful and cooperative (more or less) when the authorities arrived, and look at how they’ve been treated — they are all presumed guilty and treated accordingly. The stupid actions of some of the Texas authorities have KO’d their own credibility. If Texas law enforcement types get a Waco-like reception when they try stunts like this in the future, they have only themselves to blame.
April 15, 2008 at 11:52 am
Guy, by the way, could you add a link to M* on your blog? Thanks.
April 15, 2008 at 11:56 am
If a stepfather was raping his 14 year old daughter do you think the state should take the younger kids away as well?
Honestly, some of the comments here boggle my mind. I’m all for calling out Texas if they went too far. But let’s be honest here. The leader of this group is in jail for accomplice to rape. He has been accused by several nephews of sodomizing them when they were 5 – 6 years old.
The reason the folks in Texas are there was primarily for fleeing prosecution by Utah authorities who were going on a case by case basis. They fled to avoid DNA collection and before they left destroyed birth records that could establish ages. Gee. It must all be a misunderstanding. There’s no evidence of systematic child abuse here by this group.
This is not akin to a few bad apples engaging in inappropriate behavior. This clearly is something systematic that other FLDS members are attempting to preserve and protect.
April 15, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Because none of them are married in the eyes of the state. Legally you have at most one marriage and thus not legal polygamy. At best you can charge the men with fornicating with women not their wife. Now are you willing to prosecute that equally across America?
Polygamy where the marriages aren’t consider real marriages seems unenforceable and of dubious legality. The way in the 19th century this was prosecuted was by cohabitation laws. But there’s lots of ways around that. Legally if you go after fundamentalists for polygamy you have to go after ever man for having a mistress since there is structurally no difference.
April 15, 2008 at 12:14 pm
If there are fundamentalist Evangelicals engaging in systematic abuse then yes, I do think the State ought charge them. And, based upon my experiences in Lousiana, I’m pretty convinced there are. I think a lot of fundamentalist Evangelicals and Pentacostals play the game by doing home schooling so their kids can be isolated and so that no outsiders can see the abuse going on. And I think that’s wrong. And I think the State has a duty to do something about it.
Is there hypocrisy? You bet. There’s equally bad abuse and polygamy in the African immigrant community but you don’t see equivalent intervention. And there are large African immigrant communities in Texas. I’d hope the State checks those out for systematic polygamy and abuse. (I’d written on the hypocrisy on this issue at M*) And I think it unconscionable that Texas only changed the statutory rape age due to the influx of FLDS fleeing prosecution in Utah. Was it somehow OK to have those relations when it was Baptists, Pentacostals and Evangelicals? It’s a horrible double standard.
But what I’m asking for is more saving of the children, not less. Which is what some appear to be asking for.
April 15, 2008 at 12:16 pm
It seems like everyone has an opinion about something nobody really knows the truth about. In this world a lot of cruel and unthinkable things happen. In fact they happen every minute of the day. Only do some become news worthy. I do not see anyone making such a big deal over the individuals who suffer each and every day. It only seems that when it comes to religion that people start to stand on the soap box. It is awful what these children have to go through. Nobody except the people who live this know what really is going on. I don’t fully believe someone who goes on the news. Most of the time, they are the ones who have something to hide. Notice I said most of the time. If you are going to complain about the injustice then you need to complain about all injustice.
I seem to remember in Waco the people in the compound started shooting at the law enforcement. If someone shot at me then yes I will fight for my life.
Everyone in America believes in something different. That is what makes this America. Most people have laws that we have to follow. If you don’t like the laws then I suggest you find a new country to live in.
April 15, 2008 at 12:23 pm
Clark,
But a stepfather raping his 14-year-old stepdaughter is far different than parents arranging marriage for their underage daughters (which, I agree, is a bad thing). The stepfather, though, puts the other children at imminent risk, because there’s no reason he’s not going to go after the 8-year-old. With the FLDS, the 8-year-old is safe for at least the next several years.
Still, you make a fair argument up until that point. But this is where it breaks down: there’s no evidence (and I haven’t even seen a credible allegation) that every parent was arranging underage marriages for their daughters. So you take away the daughters of every father who has arranged an underage marriage for his daughter; what about the boys? What about the parents who don’t allow their daughters to be married until they’re 18, 19, or 21? What about the parents whose oldest is 12, and there is no suggestion that those parents would let their kids get married young?
I don’t doubt that there are people among the FLDS doing bad things to girls and permitting bad things to be done to their daughters. I do, however, doubt that each and every one of the children in the community was at risk.
April 15, 2008 at 12:48 pm
Clark, you are asserting as fact ideas that have NOT been established, in Utah or Arizona, much less in Texas.
I guess we need to include this disclaimer in every comment in order to be spared such accusations: I do not support polygamy. I do not support force in marriage or family relationships. I abhor child abuse, rape, sodomy, murder, the desecration of human remains, and every other crime or unsavory practice of which the FLDS have been accused in the past few days. Allegations must be investigated; children at risk — with some minimal level of evidence of risk — must be protected.
Now that I’ve at least claimed to be a decent human being, is it all right if I say that I *believe* Texas has gone too far, that it has accepted fantastical claims and admitted that they have failed to find evidence — they can’t find the 16-year-old complaint, their cadaver dogs found no murder victims, no incinerated bodies — that they were and are unprepared to take care of these children so have done them a disservice in the name of protecting them, that their officials have voiced contempt for conservative worldviews and the desire to withdraw from the world of sex and violence as entertainment, and in so doing have done these children a disservice, and that if bureaucrats can do this to that group of children, they can do it to anybody’s children?
April 15, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Clark,
Unfortuantely it is very common if allegations are brought about someone abusing one child, that child will be eventually removed and the other children are allowed to remain in the home. I have personally seen these cases. You’ll see this policy pop up in the media every now and again when the child left in the home is then killed by the parent.
Are you referring to the LeBaron sodomy case? If so, you have no basis for stating this is the same group. Back it up.
April 15, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Umm.. No. It’s not.
April 15, 2008 at 1:36 pm
Please name what facts I’ve claimed that are not established.
1. FLDS fleeing Utah investigations for statutory rape. Check.
2. Texas having lower age of statutory rape until recently. Check.
3. Birth records being destroyed as FLDS flee to Texas. Check.
4. Warren Jeffs FLDS prophet convicted of accomplice to rape. Check.
5. Warren Jeffs accused by several nephews of sodomizing them. Check.
6. Women leaving FLDS accusing FLDS of systematic abuse and underage marriage. Check.
7. FLDS charged with statutory rape. Check.
8. FLDS systematically protecting rapists. Check.
Please inform me which fact is wrong.
April 15, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Clark,
Yes it is.
April 15, 2008 at 1:43 pm
No. It is a charge by Brent Jeffs and several others. I can do better than back it up and can point you to a tragic interview with him. The lawsuit about the abuse is well documented as well. You can also read about it in this Deseret News story.
Certainly it happens just as it happens that abused children are left in abusive situations. The state of our foster care system is horrible. The child protective services are, in most places, woefully understaffed and underfunded. They make far too many mistakes in both directions. (The innocent suffering in both ways)
But that wasn’t my point. It is the case that often when it can be established than an environment is abusive that all children will be removed from that environment. Which is what Texas has done.
Now as to whether they did this correctly we will have to wait until Thursday to see when due process continues.
April 15, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Sam, being forced to have sex with someone you don’t want to is rape. Period. Parents forcing this are themselves guilty of facilitating rape. There’s no difference and pretending there is simply fills me with… I can’t even express how it makes me feel for someone to say they aren’t the same.
April 15, 2008 at 1:52 pm
But, just so I don’t leave bare disagreement (and, again, for the record, I said that it was a bad thing): your stepfather hypothetical indicates a current and imminent threat of violence, perpetrated by him. An underage marriage has the potential for future violence. It is not, however, a sure thing, and is subject to all sorts of caveats.
But even if I grant your hypothetical (i.e., I will give you a one-to-one correspondence between stepfather rape and arranged marriages): how does that justify Texas’s taking children against whom no threat of violence was even alleged?
As to your list of facts: at least two of your facts are actually the fact that somebody has made an allegation. Yes, Jeffs’ nephews accused him, and yes, women accuse the FLDS. And it may be true. But the actions putatively underlying the accusations are not established facts.
And some of your facts prove too much. FLDS are charged with statutory rape. (Better: some FLDS are so charged.) Some LDS are charged with statutory rape. Some Catholics are. Some Californians are. Some Masons are. At what group and level do we allow some to tar the whole group? Ditto with your number 8.
April 15, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Clark,
So you’re arguing that they are accomplices to rape. Which is fine; quite often, the punishment is similar. But, even if you’re right 99% of the time, it is not the case 100% of the time. (I’m thinking of a book I read years ago, but the details are fuzzy enough that I can’t recall it.)
However, I’m perfectly willing to grant you that the parents are accomplices to rape and, for all intents and purposes, are guilty of the crime committed. (Although there has to be a relevant time difference: the parents can’t be guilty of rape at the time they arrange the marriage, because for whatever reason the marriage may not go through; while legalistic and semantic, it probably is relevant.) And yet how does this justify the scale of what Texas did? There has been no allegation that every child was having marriage arranged at a young age.
If Jeffs did what he is accused of doing to his nephews, that’s reprehensible. If he forced girls to get married and have sex while below the age of consent (or, frankly, above it), that’s terrible. But just because Jeffs is a bad person doesn’t (or shouldn’t) make every member of the FLDS religion a legally and morally suspect person.
April 15, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Regarding fact, the fact was the claim not the conviction for the claim. (This case, like several involving Jeffs, is still awaiting trial)
As to at what level do we tar the whole group. When (a) the group is fleeing prosecution for the crimes; when (b) the leader has been convicted for these crimes; when (c) many if not most of the group has been shielding the leader; when (d) many from from the community claim this is systematic and common. At that point there is a prima facie reason to assume it is systematic.
Now I’d note that this does not justify abrogating civil rights. As I said it’s not clear to me yet that Texas has done this. But it is enough to believe that they are guilty. If there is an environment of abuse then it behoves the state to remove all children from that environment.
April 15, 2008 at 2:17 pm
Those commenters trying to equate the FLDS investigations with the BATF raid on the Branch Davidians in Waco really need to lay off the conspiracy-kool-aid. The Branch Davidians were amassing an arsenal because David Koresh taught his followers that the end-times would be ushered in by their “war” with the United States Government. The BATF had gathered enough evidence to get a magistrate to approve a warrant to search Mount Carmel for illegal weapons. The Davidians were tipped off prior to the execution of the warrant, and Koresh’s “Mighty Men,” a paramilitary organization within his religion was armed and ready to fire on government officials lawfully carrying out their duty.The Great State of Texas was not involved in the raid (other than the TNG helicopters used as distraction), and there was no threat of removing families; just an investigation of illegal weapons held by a dangerous group of traitors, a charge that proved true in the opening minutes of the raid.David Koresh and Warren Jeffs are more like Charles Manson in philosophy than like Joseph Smith. So let’s leave the Branch Davidians and our pride and sympathy for our polygamous pioneer heritage out of this discussion. Okay?
April 15, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Bull Moose while that was true I believe the justification that the Feds used was child abuse which was never really found to be accurate. However I agree that way too many people are reading Waco back into current events or worse reading 19th century LDS experience into current FLDS experiences.
April 15, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Clark, BATF has no jurisdiction over child abuse, and that was never used as a “justificiation” for the raid (although there were prior allegations, many of which were supported by evidence relased after the seige and self-immolation).
BATF had been investigating the weapons allegations up to 10 months prior to the raid, and had detailed the make-up of the Davidian’s stockpile. The warrant was weapons related, no pretense for child-snatching.
April 15, 2008 at 2:48 pm
Guy I viewed the photo gallery that accompanied the Deseret News article. ‘FLDS mothers say Texas officials lied to them’ Keith Johnson, Deseret News photographer, should win an award. I wept like somebody’s grandmother.
This is EVIL brothers and sisters, EVIL right in your face so you cannot claim you didn’t know.
On a lighter note can someone direct me to the photo of the alleged coffeemaker in the FLDS YFZ kitchen?
April 15, 2008 at 3:13 pm
BM I stand corrected. I know most of the conspiracy theories about Waco make a big deal about purported abuse charges.
April 15, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Contributer said: “This is EVIL brothers and sisters, EVIL right in your face so you cannot claim you didn’t know.”
Maybe it’s just me, but the women I saw seemed devastated that their children were taken, yes, but also frightened about what those children might reveal to CPS officials.
There seems to be at least two ways a girl growing up in this culture deals with the revelation that at ever-decreasing ages, the women are going to be “given” in marriage to whomever the leaders choose:
First, she can accept the life as “God’s way” as taught by her family and religious leaders, and that “the world” is wicked and doesn’t understand and that’s why the government is out to get them. This creates the institutional paranoia evident in the practices of this group. This also creates adult women willing to lie to protect their husbands and children, because after all, they do this, and “they’re not bad people.”
Second, she can feel the pang of conscience and think that this isn’t right, and find a way to remove herself from the society, a difficult task considering it involves leaving her family.
While I focused this consideration of cultural conditioning on the underage marriage aspect, it could certainly apply to any other allegations such as sex-crimes against minors, or other physical abuse possibly occuring among the FLDS.
How many of you are going to continue to crow about how offensive to families the Texas raid is if the investigations reveal a widespread, systematic pattern of sexual and/or physical abuse, i.e. more instances beyond the girl who originally called?
April 15, 2008 at 3:42 pm
I think the coffee-maker was in the video interview of “Richard”
I keep coming back to the affidavits, which, in my opinion do not justify the actions taken by the Texas authorities.
You have to present an affidavit for probable cause first- you are not allow to say “we know these people are bad guys” and then treat them that way while you search for evidence.
The exception for CPS is that they may remove a child prior to a hearing if the child is in “immediate” danger. Now maybe it’s just me, but the mere possibility (how ever real) that a girl will be illegally “married” at age 16 does not sound “immediate” to me.
Nor does the possibility that a boy might be required to marry a second wife at age 30 sound like “immediate” danger either.
The actions of the Texas authorities seems to be questionable on Constitutional grounds, and on ultimate effectiveness- as I suspect this will only make the FLDS situation worse.
April 15, 2008 at 3:46 pm
By the way, I hate to ask this question, but I feel someone needs too…
Judge Barbara Walther…
What religious faith is she?
I ask because I saw a quote by someone who knew her commenting that whatever she did it would be a “prayerful decision”.
April 15, 2008 at 4:09 pm
Cicero if there were many underaged women married who did not wish to be there and were being forced to have sex with community pressure then I think that would constitute an immediate danger.
Note that this is what the original call claimed. Now if the original call turns out to be a fraud (and I’d note we don’t yet know one way or the other) then that makes the original raid a mistake. However as I’ve noted if someone makes a false call to child protective services and upon investigating the call they find actual abuse going on that original false call does not mean that the State can’t stop actual abuse.
Is there actual abuse? We don’t know. The claim of so many appears to be that there is none and that Texas is simply removing all the children from the FLDS because they don’t like the FLDS and that the court hearings on Thurdsay will be a farce and not about abuse at all. Forgive me but that seems to me to be a huge claim in need of justification.
It’s one thing to be skeptical of Texas authorities. It’s quite an other to claim that are engaged in what frankly would be criminal malfeasance without any evidence whatsoever.
If Texas officials are acting improperly then I’ll be the first to call for investigations of them. But there have the past few days here been lots of charges of Texas officials and no evidence. Ironically this is being done by the same people who appear to label any charge of wrong doing by FLDS as mere rumor or gossip.
April 15, 2008 at 4:20 pm
I’m really having a hard time with the so-called lawyers on this blog, both real and those that “play one on t.v.” pronouncing that the affidavit was insufficient because it was based on hearsay.
Do you people know what hearsay is?!?
Do you people know that it is not allowed as evidence at trial by rules of evidence, not because it is wholly unreliable and bad, but because there is a rule against it?!?
An affidavit is a sworn statement, and in the case of a warrant, usually includes much evidence that would be excluded in trial, including hearsay. But that does not invalidate the warrant!
And, may I ask, what does it matter what religion the judge is? Seriously. Are you alleging (based on hearsay no less! *gasp*) that her religious beliefs will inform her decisions? Are you suggesting that is somehow improper?
Seriously, people need to take a deep breath before casting these aspersions on Texas law enforcement and the judiciary unless you are willing to cast similar aspersions based purely on emotion toward the FLDS.
April 15, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Clark said: “But there have the past few days here been lots of charges of Texas officials and no evidence. Ironically this is being done by the same people who appear to label any charge of wrong doing by FLDS as mere rumor or gossip.”
Just wanted to quote that and say, “Hear, hear!”
April 15, 2008 at 5:12 pm
The victims of actual physical and sexual abuse should certainly be taken away from the ranch and the individuals responsible for the abuse should be prosecuted.
Having said that, however, the idea that children from two months to eighteen years are all in imminent danger of abuse is ridiculous and what Texas is doing by taking all children out of the ranch (based only on a phone call by a girl that Texas and Arizona authorities are admitting may not even exist) and seperated from their mothers and even fom each other is immoral and should be illegal.
Everyone in the United States should be concerned about this abuse of justice because everyone should wonder who will be next — in other words, what group will the government decide is guilty of indoctrinating their children and are not giving them “a normal life.” This is a travesty and America is sitting quietly by.
Furthermore, the comment by Bull Moose, “Second, she can feel the pang of conscience and think that this isn’t right, and find a way to remove herself from the society, a difficult task considering it involves leaving her family,” is silly. Why should the FLDS girl feel pangs of conscience?
Folks, girls marrying at a young age has happened for millenia and continues to the present in other parts of the world. Even here in the United States, the marriage age was as young as 12 in some states in the 19th century and most states had the age at 14 well into the first decades of the 20th century. While that is not the case today, the idea the girl should feel pangs of conscience for doing what is only natural (ie. marriage after reaching menarche) is silly and offensive.
Regarding the emotional and social aspects of such early marriages to older men, I personally think it’s good we have raised the age of marriage and feel we should enforce those laws. But we need to be careful not to throw away basic rights nor to place our own values on a society that is not your typical 21st century American society.
And finally, many of these accusations reek of the same sensationalized and mostly baseless stereotyping of 19th and early 20th century anti-Mormon literature and propaganda.
We need to see this for what it is.
April 15, 2008 at 5:22 pm
“What is equally baffling, as some commentors have observed, is the deafening silence from organizations like the …” LDS church?
April 15, 2008 at 5:35 pm
I just saw the video of the FLDS women talking to the press on YouTube.
After seeing that video I am convinced that the State of Texas is far more of a threat to these women and children than the FLDS church is.
We’ve all heard ex-LDS members tell lies against the Mormon Church. I wonder if the same mentality applies to ex-FLDS members like Carolyn Jessop?
The FLDS women in the video don’t seem very to be happy to have been “rescued”. If life on that ranch was nothing but an endless cycle of torture and sexual abuse, then you would think they would have been happy to have gotten themselves and their children out of there.
If these women and children were happy on their ranch, then we should leave them alone. Nobody is a victim of anything unless they believe themselves to be a victim. We need to get over ourselves and understand that we’re not helping these people if they don’t want our so-called “help”.
Taking over 400 children away from their family based on the unfounded accusation of an apparently non-existent 16 year old against a man who wasn’t even in the state is a travesty. I am ashamed that this could happen in America
April 15, 2008 at 5:52 pm
http://origin.sltrib.com/news/ci_8934250
What about all the children who have been abused while in the state’s care? Do state reps usually speak out against groups before they are charged? Before their hearing? I’m from PA but I’ve never heard of that before.
“Two Texas legislators who spoke at this afternoon’s press conference said the state will come up with the resources for the massive action against the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.”
April 15, 2008 at 5:55 pm
Texas had legal age of marriage for a girl at 14. When FLDS moved to Texas Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff worked on Texas legislators and found a helpful fellow in Rep. Harvey Hilderbran, R-Kerrville who wrote law targeting the FLDS. So in 2005 the law became 16 for legal age of marriage and other changes all targeting the FLDS. How this passes constitutional muster I can’t understand.
If we can trust the government’s word then Saddam had WMD after all.
April 15, 2008 at 6:16 pm
AR could you please explain where the constitutional problems would be? Please be explicit and clear.
April 15, 2008 at 7:25 pm
Clark,
If the law on marriage was changed explicitly to target the FLDS religion, then that would seem to be a violation of the First Amendment which says:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”
If raising the minimum age for marriage was explicitly intended to prohibit the free exercise of the FLDS faith (and from things that Hilderbran said in the press it appears that it was) then a pretty clear constitutional problem would seem to arise.
April 15, 2008 at 7:54 pm
These are not “lies.” This is a [group–edited]that encourages men to RAPE little girls. They are no better then NAMBLA or any other [edited] out there. They DESERVE to have their children RESCUED from them. FLDS is nothing more then a Jonestown or a Branch Dividians. [edited] True believers in God they are not. They are getting what they deserve, period. And they need to accept the fact that they are 100% in the wrong.
April 15, 2008 at 7:55 pm
http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,5143,695270749,00.html
Look at this pic of the armored vehicle.
April 15, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Jami, Those are your opinions based on heresay – not proven facts.
April 15, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Jami and others. I have been gone most of the day, without reliable or consistent internet access, so I have had a difficult time moderating the site; however, I am pleased to see most comments do not need moderation; however, as I have said on other threads, I prefer you not use the word “cult” or pedophiles or rapists to describe any religious movement, or individuals not convicted of those particular crimes, including the FLDS, and I will edit comments accordingly. I may not see them all, but if and when I do, I will exercise editorial control.
I really think mature adults can have a reasoned and even frank and candid exchange of ideas without resorting to religious obscenities.
Thank you–that is all 😉
April 15, 2008 at 8:29 pm
#76 ed42
Using this tragedy as an excuse to grind your own personal axe is tasteless and crass.
April 15, 2008 at 8:35 pm
Facts about Polygamy:
1. Polygamy is a LEGAL marriage between a woman and a man who has multiple LEGAL wives.
2. Polygamy IS NOT found among the citizens of the United States of America because the law strictly forbids the practice.
3. Any U.S. citizen claiming to be a polygamist is nothing more than an adulterous man or a fornicating woman with the exception of the man’s first and only legal wife.
3. Polygamy IS NOT an issue here.
Facts about U.S. law:
1. The U.S. is NOT a democracy; it is a Constitutional Republic – that means that the government is limited by the laws set forth in the U.S. and State Constitutions.
2. Citizens, guests and all institutions (religious or otherwise) sanctioned by the government under the law are “UNDER” not above the law. It doesn’t matter if a church has a charter. A charter does not exempt a church from the law regardless of the beliefs and doctrines that they hold.
3. Likewise, governments and government officials are not exempt from the law. They are “UNDER” not above the law. Due process is the order of the land.
The only relevant questions are; 1. Have the Constitutional rights of the individuals involved been violated? 2. Was there “reasonable grounds” to believe that a felony had been committed or that the children were in emanate danger sufficient to issue a warrant authorizing their removal? Ultimately those are questions for the court to decide.
In my mind all other issues be it photos of coffee makers, sobbing mothers, Waco, polygamous ancestors or other religious philosophies… are not relevant to the discussion and take the focus off the real issues involved here.
April 15, 2008 at 8:35 pm
CPS press conference video:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/15/polygamist.ranch/index.html#cnnSTCVideo
Sounds like doublespeak to me.
April 15, 2008 at 9:28 pm
Does IT NOT MAKE MORE sense to LEAVE the women and children and take the men (the penis bearers) instead!!???
DON’T SEPARATE MOTHERS FROM THEIR CHILDREN!!!!!
I THOUGHT THIS WAS A FREE COUNTRY!!
WTF?!
April 15, 2008 at 10:04 pm
Clark: First of all you are wrong about the original call.
I’ve read the original affidavit here:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0408081texas1.html
It did not claim that there were a bunch of women being abused. It was one girl who identified specific abuse that occurred to her. It mentions that she had to go to the hospital- why aren’t the Texas official trying to figure out which hospital she went too- there can’t be that many in the area.
Also, this affidavit is double hearsay. This does not mean it is untrue, I’m just pointing it out. The phone was made to a “local shelter” therefor I gather there is no recording of it. The affidavit is not sworn to by the person who actually spoke to the girl (as I think would be better, as it would allow for greater specificity,) instead it is sworn to by someone else who was informed that this phone call was made.
Now the desire to respond promptly to this call for help in my mind makes it understandable that they might be in a rush and so did not take the time to get the actual person who took the call to make the affidavit. However, considering the breadth of the search being made due to this phone call I think it might have been a good idea.
Consider the 4th amendment:
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
These warrants are very broad considering the need for “probable cause” and the requirement that they be “particularly describing”.
Now I can understand the need for a broad search warrant do to the secretive nature of the FLDS- however, I do not understand how the 4th amendment can be reconciled with the seizure of 415 children- at least not based on the evidence contained in the affidavits.
Again CPS does have some latitude in cases of “immediate danger” to children, but the mere possibility (how ever real) that a girl will be illegally “married” at age 16 does not sound “immediate” to me.
Nor does the possibility that a boy might be required to marry a second wife at age 30 sound like “immediate” danger either.
Understand that this does not mean that CPS can’t continue an investigation- just that the seizure of children not in immediate danger requires probable cause relating to that particular child or household. Simply belonging to the FLDS religion (however suspicious it is) is not sufficient.
Justifying investigation- sure I can agree with that, but the 4th Amendment requires some specific level of proof before allowing the seizure of a person.
Then I read the second affidavit:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html
Again this is a person reporting a summary of what other investigators have told her.
Now I can comprehend it somewhat in the case of the interviews of the girls by different caseworkers- although it would be nice if the persons who did the actual interviews gave the swore statement.
However, in the case of the Sheriff and the CI who told him this stuff about the temple having beds use to consummate marriages (a very suspect accusation in my opinion), I understand that the CI might not be available to give a statement, but surely the sheriff is available to give a sworn affidavit as to what the CI told him. Don’t make the court depend on a Ranger swearing that a CI told the sheriff who then told her.
Now despite these concerns I accept the interviews at face value. Again I count:
2 reports from FLDS children of a girl who is 16 and married with a baby.
1 report of a sixteen year old with a new baby (can’t tell if she is the same as identified as the two children)
1 report of a woman who says she is 18, though the worker thinks she is 16 and was suppressed by the presence of her husband.
3 reports of women over 18, (18, 19, and 20 respectively) at least one of whom might have had children as early as age 16 (although at that point in time Texas age of consent w/ parental permission was 14, w/o parental permission was 16- I hope no one is going to argue for ex-post facto laws). These in particular create a difficult question as legally they are now adults- can you take an adult women into protective custody against her will based on a belief of past abuse?
1 report a girl estimated by the worker to be 16, with a 2 year old child. Attached to this is the statement of an 8 year old that this girl is 16 and has 4 children. (This contradicts some of the girls statements- so I would not be so sure about this one).
It seems to me that this could justify taking into immediate custody the 16 year old, the suspected 16 year old, and possibly the woman who claimed she was 18 but may have been intimidated by the presence of her husband.
None of this seems to give probable cause that there was any systematic abuse, or systematic underage marriages. Obviously some 16 year-olds are being married off, that does not translate into systematic, and hence means the seizure of all 415 children is not justified.
Then there was the decision to take away the mother’s cell phones the day after they used them to speak with reporters. Followed by the decision to separate the mothers from their children.
While the first affidavits might be explained by haste, or sloppiness, it’s beginning to look like the affidavits are merely perfunctory paperwork for a result that has already been predetermined.
Hence my question about the judge as I want to know if she has any background that might make her impartiality suspect.
Now some people are saying Texas must have more evidence, and we should give them the benefit of the doubt. However, in America, the government is not entitled to the benefit of the doubt.
We require the production of affidavits for the issuance of warrants so that everything is in the open and all Americans can see that their government is one bound by the law, and by our Constitution.
Now we have two possibilities here:
At worst the affidavits are the sum of their evidence, in which case the 4th Amendment has been violated, and this is a horrible abuse of governmental power.
At best, the government has additional information and evidence that it did not include in the affidavits- due to haste or something else. In this case the government has still set a bad precedent, as the public records of affidavits should include sufficient evidence to justify the warrants issued. The government should not be able to claim “secret evidence” (except under specific exceptions as stated in the law) as grounds for seizure of American citizens.
April 15, 2008 at 10:11 pm
They are separating the men, the women, and the children. Here’s a new motto for the Texas CPS:
Arbeit Macht Frei
April 15, 2008 at 10:50 pm
Is poligamy legal in USA?? Is marrige with 13 year old girls legal too??? If the answer is YES than what is the difference between Afghanistan and USA??? I’v read such stories only about Talibans in Afganistan and now in Texas.
April 16, 2008 at 3:08 am
tomislav:
Nothing on Guy’s blog or any of these posts about the current situation has much if anything to do with polygamy.
Guy is a lawyer interested in the preserving civil rights through enforcing due process and insisting on sufficiency of evidence.
All American citizens have these rights, even those who belong to a strange religion.
April 16, 2008 at 6:34 am
“While the first affidavits might be explained by haste, or sloppiness, it’s beginning to look like the affidavits are merely perfunctory paperwork for a result that has already been predetermined.”
Cicero you are right.
What options do the FLDS lawyers have now?
April 16, 2008 at 6:37 am
Did you see Sunday they stated the boys were moved to a different location, yesterday afternoon they announced they were moved to foster placement on Sunday?
April 16, 2008 at 7:10 am
I don’t think what YFZ ranch members was involved in was right, but this is just wrong. It’s a sad story on all ends.
April 16, 2008 at 8:35 am
I have signed an online petiton,if anyone wants to help here is the site (thepetitionsite.com). My family too has been attacked and persecuted by CPS. I know for a fact what these women are saying about CPS is true. I would never wish that nightmare on any family. (www.fightcps.com) Stop Family Shredding !!!
April 16, 2008 at 9:55 am
First, the next person that uses “hearsay” out of the context of a trial, but like it’s a four-letter word is seriously going to get a lump of coal from Grumpy Claus! As I’ve pointed out before, affidavits for warrants often contain hearsay; they do not need to rise to the level of evidence required at trial, ie. excluding hearsay, because the burden of proof is not the same. The process due with a warrant is not the same process due at trial.
Next, if anyone can provide legal proof (IRAC preferred) that Texas violated any constitutional right of any mother, father, or child from the FLDS compound, I’ll never darken the digital door of this page again. Guy, Cicero, anyone else – care to take that gauntlet up?
And finally, for those who seem to be caught up on the idea that everything about this case hinges on the phone call from the 16 y.o. girl, recall that a Texas DPS (state troopers) spokesperson and the county sheriff had been investigating the FLDS for a couple of years, and the phone call (OT: anyone remember the BYU film of that name with Jimmy Olsen of the Superman movies?) was the straw that broke the camel’s back, so to speak.
April 16, 2008 at 10:58 am
Regarding comment #98. This person used the name “Bull Moose” need I say more about what type of person this is. For your information they violated the ” Bill of Rights”.
April 16, 2008 at 11:17 am
Rose: It is telling that the crux of your comment is argumentum ad homimem based on my screen name (exactly what type of person am I? You do need to say more.).
Which specific Amendment did Texas violate, and how? A legal challenge will fail if the entirety of the Petition is “Texas violated the Bill of Rights. /s/ Rose.”
I don’t challenge your right to feel upset and sympathetic about what happened, I just challenge your claims that the state of Texas did anything wrong without proof.
April 16, 2008 at 11:42 am
Bull Moose, Texas caused all this chaos over some phantom girl that nobody knows is real or fake allegations. Thats all it takes is just one false phone call from an anonymous caller to CPS and a bomb goes off. My family has been attacked by them on false allegations and have had many of our rights violated. They lie all to profit from placing kids in foster homes and adopting them out.(For more info please visit (www.fightcps.com)
April 16, 2008 at 12:58 pm
Rights Violated
1(amendment) freedom of religion
5(amendment) not be deprived of property(children) or have property taken(children)
8(amendment) right against cruel and unusual punishment(ripping kids from the only family they have ever known)All the parents out there know what I mean.
14(amendment) and also “Miranda Rights”
There are more than these.
April 16, 2008 at 1:39 pm
Show me the money. Thanks to Hillary and her It takes a Village the Texas CPS will become very rich and increase our debt. Each child taken into custody and held for 24hr entitles the State to A minimum of $4,000.00 per child. At that point Medicare, SSI, and requiring the parents to pay a specially seclected foster parent who get about $600.00 per child. CPS is only concerned about keeping Juvenile Justice alive and secret.
April 16, 2008 at 1:50 pm
Rose, please provide evidence of these alleged violations. A laundry list of the Bill of Rights proves nothing other than you are sympathetic to the FLDS and upset. Copying and pasting from the Family Rights Association website will not stand in court.
Without evidence (read “proof”) you have no legal legs to stand on, which the Constitution requires if you are to challenge state action.After all, the Constitution grants the federal and state governments power over life and property of citizens within the bounds of the Bill of Rights. But as you are aware, the Bill of Rights are not absolute. For instance, the First Amendment’s Establishment clause does not allow an incarcerated Native American to use peyote because it part of his religion. Nor did it save those in the 19th Century LDS church from prosecution under the Edmonds Act.
In short, your freedom of religion is not, nor was it intended to be by the Founding Fathers, absolute. The Fifth Amendment does not mean you cannot be deprived of property, it means that you *can* be deprived of property with due process. The quesiton here is: what process was due? Were the parents afforded that process. As Clark has stated before, we don’t have enough evidence to say that the parents due process was violated.
The Eighth Amendment does not apply, becuase the parents have not been convicted and sentenced; it is not “punishment”.
Miranda Warnings encompass the 4th, 5th, and 5th Amendments, but only apply if the authorities were placing the mothers and children in custody incident to a criminal investigation where the mothers and children were suspects, not the case, here.
I sympathize with you and the situation that you have gone through with CPS and your family. I know that CPS removal cases are awfully emotionally draining and can be destructive to the families. But your experience does not make the removal of the children from YFZ ranch unnecessary or excessive. Their situation is different from yours, I’m assuming. Unless you were living in a FLDS polygamous compound in Texas when your children were removed.
April 16, 2008 at 10:03 pm
Wayne
Scroll down on this page, he estimates it to be close to 100K
http://www.robinsoncurriculum.com/view/rc/s31p718.htm
April 16, 2008 at 10:34 pm
Bull Moose #73:
Yes, do you?
And, there is a rule against it because by and large it is unreliable. (But thanks though for a trip down memory lane).
No one, at least that I have read has said that.
Texas law enforcement has earned the criticisms leveled against them. And, frankly it is our First Amendment right and duty to criticize government–particularly when they act like armed storm troopers against a non violent group of people.
April 16, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Bull Moose,
I’ve been arguing the weakness of the Texas legal position from the facts of this case since the raid, from the affidavits filed in court, based on Texas Family Law statutes, and based on facts published in the media. If you want to dispute any of my arguments, they are out there in my various posts–have at it.
April 17, 2008 at 9:48 am
Hearsay: an out-of-court statement used to prove the truth of the matter (Black’s definition 2). Or, testimony given by a witness not based on personal knowledge, but on what the witness heard someone else say, depriving the accused an opportunity to test the credibility of the speaker who spoke out-of-court.
The problem is not reliability. If that were the case, then eyewitness testimony would not be allowed as evidence as well (See generally the research of Susan Loftus on the subject). The problem is the inability to test credibility of the speaker and the accused’s right to confront a witness.
Since that problem is not a concern when a judge issues a warrant based on probable cause established by law enforcement, any claim that “The second paragraph of the affidavit is the weakest part of the affidavit, which again is based on double hearsay,” (Guy Murray, April 9, 2008, “Anonymous Sources Support Eldorado FLDS Search Warrants”) will get an eye roll from the judge. Of course, you do go on to state, “While this type of double hearsay may support the issuance of a search warrant, it is certainly not reliable enough to take it at face value for the truth of the matter asserted,” which is a way of saying it’s okay for the affidavit, after you have just intimated it is inappropriate for an affidavit. Now, your readers are frothing at the mouth saying that the affidavit is a problem because it is based on hearsay (See Cicero’s comment’s above).
And you continue to muddy the water between affidavit for warrant and evidence in court with your statement, “The bottom line is that the allegations [in the affidavit] would never be admissible in a court of law.” But why not be intellectually honest with yourself and your readers and admit that the allegations aren’t meant to be admissible in trial, assuming that’s what you meant by “in a court of law.” The affidavit is meant to establish probable cause in a court of law so the magistrate will issue a warrant. The burden of proof for probable cause, as you know, is lower than at trial.
The bottom line is, when one of your lines of attack against Texas is, “The affidavits are based on hearsay,” and the raid was illegal (if it’s not a criticism, then why bring it up in the jury’s … uh, I mean, in your reader’s minds) you can’t retreat into a claim that “no one” has suggested the warrant is invalid.
April 17, 2008 at 9:55 am
And, for the record, the gauntlet I threw down was not to demonstrate how poorly Texas handled this; that is evident. My challenge was for someone to prove any Constitutional rights were violated. Still waiting …
April 17, 2008 at 12:20 pm
Are we really an enlightened society?. The orginal complaint and due justice in that case is nowhere in sight. All we are seeing is 100s of children suffering, their parents (esp mothers) being painted as archaic, oppressed, out of date, evil and all that. Beautiful!
April 17, 2008 at 12:55 pm
Passerby, consider the following:
– Women who have attempted to leave the FLDS have been threatened with physical harm or otherwise coerced into remaining, often with their children used as collateral.
– Boys among the FLDS who were considered competition for the older men have been forced out of their communities (I thought they were “family centered”?).
– Their moral and spiritual leader, when accused of numerous crimes of moral turpitude went “on the lam” for many months before being recognized and although he insisted he wasn’t Warren Jeffs (lied?) was captured.
Is it beyond reason based on this group’s previous actions that the original complainant has been moved somewhere that Texas law enforcement can’t get to her?
I’ll also add that many of the men of YFZ ranch have been “nowhere in sight” the past couple of weeks but nobody is doubting their existence.
April 18, 2008 at 1:26 am
I am an LDS woman. I hold dear those beliefs. I do not think that the Texas authorities have done anything illegal. Morally questionable, perhaps, but the main thing is to protect innocent children. Until everything is sorted out, the kids should remain away from their mothers and fathers. What kind of a mother would allow her 13 year old daughter to marry a man so old he could almost be her grandfather? These men should be charged with rape!! My understanding of the old ways of polygomy ws not just for pleasure or just because they could. It was for the protection of land and families… like if a man died, the woman could be married to another man, even if he had another wife, because women back then could not own land and no way of providing for her children on her own so the church adopted a way for its people to be protected. Current polygomy is for no other reason than for the pleasure and Ego’s of men. It is disgusting… any woman who thinks it is ok for her husband to “marry” another woman is has been brain washed. All it is, is men getting away with cheating on their wife. They say to themselves, “I’m tired of this girl, I’d like to sleep with her” and then he get to have “her” as a wife too… how stupid can women really be.
April 18, 2008 at 3:33 am
After reading all these comments, I needed to add another one.
At one point in my life I too was a victim of the lies of CPS ( it was called CSD in my home state), but their initial action of removing my child was correct. After they have your child they do seem to say what ever it is they think you want to hear to get you out of their hair for the time being, but will then do what they intended all along.
After many years of growth on my part, I realize that they were doing what ws best at that time for my child and I thank them for it.
The Texas CPS seems to be right on Target with what is expected. If abuse is suspected, remove the kids. In this situation, since they all live in a commune, it is hard to initially determine which woman is “wife” to what man and who is the father of what child… especially since they don’t keep records anymore and the women aren’t cooperating with the investigation.
If they truley have nothing to hide then why not cooperate??????
April 18, 2008 at 7:00 pm
This reminds me of the scene in that movie about East Germany called “The Lives of Others” where the interrogator suggests that if the man doesn’t cooperate his children will end up in state custody. Sooo I guess these FLDS people are being used as an example of what can happen to anyone who dares not cooperate well enough with the normal behaviour of drunken debauchery and rampant consumerism. How dare they not let their children be properly brainwashed by commericals like everyone else. How dare they protect their chidren from advertisements for junk food or movies about people choping up other people with saws !! These monsters WILL be stopped !
April 18, 2008 at 8:08 pm
Of course it’s a lying [edited]
[edited] let the hostages go.
April 30, 2008 at 7:55 am
It’s fascinating to read Tiffanie Young’s comment and how it stands in stark contrast to many of the others. – Tim
May 1, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Shame Shame on Texas CPS and police, the child kidnapping, is beyond reason!!!!!!!
I am a Senior LDS Missionary, when are you going to raid our homes,take our children and dresctate,our Temples?
We LDS, people don’t believe in pologamy now.
Broken bones on a small group of kids does NOT!!!!!! mean child abuse, you storm troopers ane really reaching. Send those KIDS HOME.
May 14, 2008 at 8:11 pm
the texas cps should be charged with denying do process under the bill of rights,and over throwing the constitution of the united states, life,liberty, and the persuit of happiness,who gave those jack booted nazizs the right to arrest anyone without a trial,let alone separate childern,from their mothers that what the naziz did fact! who next baptist,presbytrians,jews,what i am saying this is not what america is about,this is evil tranny at its best,texas men were all known through out the world to have defended (women and childern)always,rememeber the ALAMO,the tyrant santa ana well they are back again the tyrants,but now they rule you like you are cattle, not that you are but it seems they think so. so prove them wrong,all if i am wrong i say it before all and my god to forgive me of what in see! evil absolute!
October 3, 2020 at 6:20 am
energy Transition
The Lies Of Texas Are Upon Us | Messenger and Advocate
December 21, 2021 at 1:33 am
My ex Norman family used my ex as a exquses as they got a stay away order against me so I could not see my boys. They acted like I needed to be gteatfull if I ever get to see them after leaving my ex finding out he was into heroin and he was taking money from us for his habit .
But my boys were being held from me for no reason at all. But just to keep them in the church as if Joseph Smith was a righteous source of God a god all right a man god .